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Can Chareidim be Yuppies?
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avigailmiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 11:51 am
Raisin wrote:
mimivan wrote:
cassandra wrote:
ora_43 wrote:
Is anyone a yuppie anymore? I thought that was an 80s thing.

.


Just what I was thinking being a professional went out a long time ago because it means you actually have to work hard for your money, even before you start earning it. First it was the tech boom then that went out, then it was real estate and hedge funds and unfortunately those are out too these days.... Stay tuned for a whole new set of sociological classifications in the coming months.


Yes, I edit a financial blogger who thinks, because of the current economic situation that conspicuous frugality in the 2010s will be what conspicuous consumption was in the 80s...it will be a bizarro world where people will brag about the great stuff they found at Salvation Army, will think people who don't reuse teabags are "uncool" etc... LOL


avigayilmiriam will be coolest of the cool!


I have things I spend money on, you know.

And I'd have to be pretty desperate tos tart reusing tea bags; I'm a tea snob.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 12:22 pm
I'm joining this party a bit late. Since I don't live in EY, I'm not familiar with the "meanings" of all the various neighborhoods.

The original 1980s moniker of "yuppie" (allegedly coined by columnist Bob Greene of the Chicago Tribune) referred not so much to excessive consumption, but rather to an almost obsessive preoccupation with career and upward mobility. Consumption was not necessarily about spending the most money, but about becoming connoiseurs of various products. In those days, an heiress, for example, would never have been referred to as a "yuppie" -- unless she had an MBA and a high-profile, demanding job!

I think it's very important to understand the historical background from which "yuppies" arose during the 1980s. People who are old enough to remember the 1970s remember a very bleak time economically. It's not useful to compare it to today's situation, because it's not about facts -- it's about perceptions and drama. Teenagers in the 1970s witnessed the wrenching change of the U.S. economy from that of manufacturing-based economy to that of a service and information processing-based economy. News reports featured daily updates on large layoffs in the steel industry and auto industry, and OPEC raised the price of gas significantly, resulting in gas rationing in many communities. People quite literally believed that Japan would end up owning the U.S.

The result was that young adults entering the workforce in the 1980s felt very vulnerable, and they recognized that unlike their parents, they couldn't count on their employers having their best interests at heart. The whole concept of directing and managing one's career emerged from this change in paradigm, and the badge of honor among yuppies was not how much you spent, but how many hours you worked. You weren't even in the running to be called a "yuppie" if you weren't putting in at least 60 hours a week at your job!

It sounds like people are confusing the concept of a "yuppie" with someone who is merely affluent -- whether through his own or others' efforts. While I've met a handful of frum yuppies, they were really just poseurs. The fact that we do not and will not work on Shabbos or Yom Tov automatically disqualifies us, frankly. The code of a yuppie is to put the job and the career first, no matter what!

BTW, I think the economic upturn in the 1990s combined with childbearing among yuppie women pretty effectively squashed admiration for the yuppie lifestyle. You don't read constant articles now about how to sabotage your rivals at work; instead, you read about balancing work and home, spending time with your family, etc.

However, as many historical figures have noted in various languages, those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it.
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 12:33 pm
Fox wrote:
While I've met a handful of frum yuppies, they were really just poseurs. The fact that we do not and will not work on Shabbos or Yom Tov automatically disqualifies us, frankly. The code of a yuppie is to put the job and the career first, no matter what!
.


Professional poseurs or religious poseurs?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 12:41 pm
cassandra wrote:
Professional poseurs or religious poseurs?


Hmmm . . . that's a very deep question!

I'm going with "professional poseurs" for the most part. Let's face it, Shabbos observance is impossible to fake with the degree that would be needed to truly be a yuppie. Simply violating various halachos wouldn't be enough -- most yuppies consider Saturday to be like any other work day, and they're in the office cranking out emails and finding new ways to harrass their subordinates on Monday morning. Back in the day, the real yuppies made a point of wearing business clothes even on weekends -- you always had to look like you were on your way to or from an important meeting so that you could psych out your competition.

Does anyone else remember John Malloy and the whole "Dress for Success" movement -- it was yuppie heaven!
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cassandra




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 12:48 pm
Business casual ended that era.

I am married to a could be a yuppie but isn't, problem is that the younger generation isn't really into all of that but the older generation who are the bosses and partners are the yuppies... really explains the disconnect. At my husband's review this year he was chastised for caring too much about his family. Why? He once was on a call with a partner and the partner heard kids screaming in the background. My husband looked at him and said " I was on vacation."
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 4:19 pm
amother wrote:

im just wondering b/c I know so many ppl like you but this is not the kind of question that you ask someone in real life. but, what is really the difference then between what you did here in america and what other couples are doing in israel? just as you don't feel that your "kollel years" were dimished by your gashmius why is it at all different? b/c you denied yourself a bugaboo?

LOL. I hear you. You didnt need to post anon, if your goal was like to be nonconfrontational and/or not insult/start a fight, because your questions make alot of sense.
- Ok. So first of all. when DH was learning, we didnt live any sort of fancy life, like I said. Yes, we did go away if my parent or in laws were going to Miami or wherever in the summer or for yom tov, on their dime, but it wasnt this jet set lifestyle or mentality. Look. To someone who is used to living a very meager life, who grew up in a household where they shared a bedroom with 3 siblings, sure, my "simple" life while DH was in kollel, would still be viewed as "extravagent." but it is/was a drop in the bucket comp. to what goes on in Israel, I see it with my own eyes
- I dont think gashmiyus "diminished" from what DH's goal was-which was to learn all day for 1 yr (ended up being a bit longer) after we got married. The gashmiyus we had, did exactly the opposite, it allowed us the luxury of having him be able to learn, with me not having to work 3 jobs to pay our rent, so his learning was essentially stress-free. I am not denying the fact that what we were B"H blessed with IS INDEED A LUXURY. But it wasnt something flaunted, its not what goes on in the neighborhoods I mentioned.
- if someone asked me what DH was doing, while he was in kollel that year, my ans. was "he is learning in yeshiva xyz, and is in college at night." So its different than the "lifestyle" choice of moving to israel and having a husband who is "learning in the mir" between his lunch breaks at cafe rimon (and not that all guys in the mir are like this! chas veshalom. just this floppy group brought up)
- in NY, at least in Brooklyn where I live, what DH was doing-finishing his BA, but doing it at night so he could maintain a Torah environment all day long learning in Kollel, is very typical. That is part of the reason I wouldnt "classify" myself as having been a "kollel couple." If somoene is IN KOLLEL. Meaning making a FULL TIME 100% devotion to that yeshiva (no college-as in the Israel situation, or moving to lakewood), that is different than what goes on in NY yeshivos such as Torah Vodaas and Chaim Berlin (those are the big ones, lots of smaller ones as well...plus other places in queens...from Landers to Shaar Hatorah and e/t in between), where college at night is "muttar" and it is KNOWN that many guys will do the college/kollel thing after getting married.
amother wrote:

don't get me wrong, I think kollel is an amazing thing to do, unfortunately dh and I couldn't do it- not b/c we didn't have the support but b/c of my dh's schooling. but this is something all of our siblings do and eventually they move on and get jobs and support this kind of lifestyle themselves, just as you claim you are doing now.

DH did it while in college at night. Which I guess is part of why I finished my undergrad requirements much faster than he did!
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 4:29 pm
amother wrote:

Actually, she does have a bugaboo.

and last I checked thats not a crime....was around when DH started working

amother wrote:


Why does it matter if it's on your own dime? To show everyone that you can foolishly spend your own money rather than your parents' money?

wow. Didnt realize this thread was gonna turn into a lets annonymously bash ss321 thread! (even though I think I have an idea of who is posting this anyway).
To me its not foolish. There is nothing wrong with taking a trip WITHIN YOUR MEANS, that you paid for yourself. Doesnt mean it has to be discussed at the shabbos table, or at your familys chanukah party. In fact, DH's sister (who he is close with) was very insulted when she found out from her mom that we had gone, but hadnt told anyone. We dont have breaks often-DH has a demanding job and I am in school full time. Its not a crime, and in my opinion, taking into account how we were brought up, not extravagent. Its not a monthly trip or yearly. Its a once in 20 yrs or once in a lifetime type thing that is not really advertised or discussed.
amother wrote:


Look, I had a bugaboo too. It's absolutely ridiculous to spend so much on a stroller. I was embarrassed by the conspicuous consumption so we sold it after a few months and got a much more practical stroller,
not one where you have to do mental and physical gymnastics to fold.

I hear you. and to me, its not about the "name" of having a great stroller. For two reasons:
a) I live in Flatbush, where there is no eiruv. so its not like I am walking around Shabbos afternoon with my fancy stroller
b) Even during the week, I dont walk around much with my kids. This is mostly because of my tight schedule. If anyone takes the baby out in the stroller, it would be the babysitter. And I dont think she really knows the difference, so its not a status type of thing.

And with regard to the issues of it being practical, what was important to me was not having an easily foldable stroller, because I drive an SUV. So I just throw the whole metal thing (chassis? whatever its called) into the back. I dont take trains with the kids if we do go to the city, its generally a family outing type of thing on a sunday, but that is not so often.

What was important to me WAS having an easy to steer stroller that isnt bumpy and navigates corners well. Having a pretty stroller. having a stroller that could be used for an infant and for a toddler. And also, having a stroller that does what graco does-is snap n go-ish. No need to xfer sleeping baby from car seat. Bugaboo fulfilled all that for me. but I think thats really off topic.
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IndyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 4:41 pm
ss321 - your parents are paying you tuition? no loans to pay back? Are they looking to adopt a 29 year old daughter?? LOL
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 6:47 pm
ss321 wrote:
amother wrote:

im just wondering b/c I know so many ppl like you but this is not the kind of question that you ask someone in real life. but, what is really the difference then between what you did here in america and what other couples are doing in israel? just as you don't feel that your "kollel years" were dimished by your gashmius why is it at all different? b/c you denied yourself a bugaboo?

LOL. I hear you. You didnt need to post anon, if your goal was like to be nonconfrontational and/or not insult/start a fight, because your questions make alot of sense.
- Ok. So first of all. when DH was learning, we didnt live any sort of fancy life, like I said. Yes, we did go away if my parent or in laws were going to Miami or wherever in the summer or for yom tov, on their dime, but it wasnt this jet set lifestyle or mentality. Look. To someone who is used to living a very meager life, who grew up in a household where they shared a bedroom with 3 siblings, sure, my "simple" life while DH was in kollel, would still be viewed as "extravagent." but it is/was a drop in the bucket comp. to what goes on in Israel, I see it with my own eyes
- I dont think gashmiyus "diminished" from what DH's goal was-which was to learn all day for 1 yr (ended up being a bit longer) after we got married. The gashmiyus we had, did exactly the opposite, it allowed us the luxury of having him be able to learn, with me not having to work 3 jobs to pay our rent, so his learning was essentially stress-free. I am not denying the fact that what we were B"H blessed with IS INDEED A LUXURY. But it wasnt something flaunted, its not what goes on in the neighborhoods I mentioned.
- if someone asked me what DH was doing, while he was in kollel that year, my ans. was "he is learning in yeshiva xyz, and is in college at night." So its different than the "lifestyle" choice of moving to israel and having a husband who is "learning in the mir" between his lunch breaks at cafe rimon (and not that all guys in the mir are like this! chas veshalom. just this floppy group brought up)
- in NY, at least in Brooklyn where I live, what DH was doing-finishing his BA, but doing it at night so he could maintain a Torah environment all day long learning in Kollel, is very typical. That is part of the reason I wouldnt "classify" myself as having been a "kollel couple." If somoene is IN KOLLEL. Meaning making a FULL TIME 100% devotion to that yeshiva (no college-as in the Israel situation, or moving to lakewood), that is different than what goes on in NY yeshivos such as Torah Vodaas and Chaim Berlin (those are the big ones, lots of smaller ones as well...plus other places in queens...from Landers to Shaar Hatorah and e/t in between), where college at night is "muttar" and it is KNOWN that many guys will do the college/kollel thing after getting married.
amother wrote:

don't get me wrong, I think kollel is an amazing thing to do, unfortunately dh and I couldn't do it- not b/c we didn't have the support but b/c of my dh's schooling. but this is something all of our siblings do and eventually they move on and get jobs and support this kind of lifestyle themselves, just as you claim you are doing now.

DH did it while in college at night. Which I guess is part of why I finished my undergrad requirements much faster than he did!

sorry about the anon thing. your right I didn't want to sound like I was confronting you but I also posted anon b/c I posted some personal facts about myself/siblings/background and this is a weird thing to discuss openly.
for the record, the person who posted underneath me was very rude imo and WE ARE NOT THE SAME AMOTHER!
I understand exactly what you are saying, I would have done the exact same thing as you but dh couldn't defer the kind of schooling he was doing and had to do it full time. but I still don't think that this would have made me any different than my sibs/your friends who do kollel in israel and are being fully supported. a weekend in miami on your parent's dime isn't that much different than a shabbos in eilat when you really think about it.
I don't think that these people are particularly "flaunting" and I know my sibs are very appreciative that their families are able to allow them to do this.
just b/c your dh was in college at night doesn't really change anything. you/ppl like you were being supported just the same and they also believe that this allows them to learn stress free.
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avigailmiriam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 7:39 pm
IndyMom wrote:
ss321 - your parents are paying you tuition? no loans to pay back? Are they looking to adopt a 29 year old daughter?? LOL


How about two 29 year old daughters?
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 10:20 pm
avigailmiriam wrote:
IndyMom wrote:
ss321 - your parents are paying you tuition? no loans to pay back? Are they looking to adopt a 29 year old daughter?? LOL


How about two 29 year old daughters?

haha
my parents are very into education and my father always said, if he could afford it, he would pay for our grad school after undergrad. I had a partial scholarship in undergrad so my dad always jokes that this is a "reward" for it.
B"H no loans to pay back. I am incredibly greatful. Takes alot of the stress away.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 13 2009, 10:34 pm
amother wrote:

sorry about the anon thing. your right I didn't want to sound like I was confronting you but I also posted anon b/c I posted some personal facts about myself/siblings/background and this is a weird thing to discuss openly.
for the record, the person who posted underneath me was very rude imo and WE ARE NOT THE SAME AMOTHER!

its ok. you didnt come across confronational at all. I guess we just disagree, whatever.
The other "amother"-I am pretty sure I know who it is, and I think her goal is just to get me to leave imamother altogether. Writing styles arent that hard to figure out. Its just funny that the same amother seems to follow me around.

amother wrote:

I understand exactly what you are saying, I would have done the exact same thing as you but dh couldn't defer the kind of schooling he was doing and had to do it full time. but I still don't think that this would have made me any different than my sibs/your friends who do kollel in israel and are being fully supported. a weekend in miami on your parent's dime isn't that much different than a shabbos in eilat when you really think about it.

to me it was quite different, because doing to miami for yom tov, with our in laws, it wouldve been insulting to say, "no, we cant go, DH is in kollel and ...pasnisht..." This is what our family does, and the end. That is different than taking your parents credit card and taking your own vacations to wherever. Miami is miami, and yes I have alot of friends who cant afford to go down like we could, but it wasnt to "fit in" or "keep up" with like other couples it was to "fit in" with our own family. Very different, at least in my opinion, but hey youre entitled to your own.

amother wrote:

I don't think that these people are particularly "flaunting" and I know my sibs are very appreciative that their families are able to allow them to do this.

ok, some are and some arent. There is a middle ground. there is a difference btwn
1 sacrifice everything (coming from a not wealthy family)and live very meagerly in israel, because you really want to live that life and experiene it
2. sacrifice not so much, because b'h your parents are able to help out substantially, live the same "lifestyle" in isr as you would in the us as a young newly married couple. Sure! theres nothing wrong with your parents flying you home for pesach, together with your lil sis who hapens to be there in seminary. But to fly you and DH home for cousin shimmy's bar mitzvah? and for your BESSST friends wedding that you could NEVVVER miss? Thats enough mileage to like join the king david club...matmid...wahtever elite thing El Al has going on.
3. Sacrifice ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING as a newly married couple, spend the year in which your husband is "learning" going out to eat with him 2-3x for lunch, meeting friends for lunch the other few days, spend the afternoons shopping at one store after the next (because there are NO colleges in israel, NO seminaries that would afford married women the chane to actually do something productive with their days, are there), go visit old seminary friends at night, come home, cook dinner for DH, watch some movies online (because tv's are assur, but movies online and keeping up with this seasons 24, are "totally different"), all this in your 3 bedroom apartment with AC, Dishwasher, and a car youve rented for yoru trip to [fill in] parked in front.
Categories 1 and 2 are BOTH fine. There is nothing wrong w/ parents supporting their kids. I am a product of such a family, and I am very thankful for everything my parents give me. category 3 is what makes category 2 (and to a lesser extent, but still, category 1) look bad.

amother wrote:

just b/c your dh was in college at night doesn't really change anything. you/ppl like you were being supported just the same and they also believe that this allows them to learn stress free.

yea...because learning doesnt HAVE to come w/ stress. Trust me. I respect and admire my friends, and my acquantainces, who had/have to sacrifice alot more for their husbands to learn than I did. But not having stress doesnt negate from the Torah being learned. OTOH-IMVHO, monthly trips around the country, going out to lunch with your wife as a "break", watching TV at night every night which is ok because its a computer, that does, kind of break up the seriousness of the entire idea of Kollel, which is supposed to serve as a foundation to marriage, for those of us (I think), who wont necessarily have husbands who will be learning "long term" full time.
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IndyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 1:09 am
Wow ss321 - you really have strong feelings about this topic.

Do you follow these people around and know which ones are shopping every day of the year versus which ones are shopping that week because their sister has off from seminary and can watch the kids so they now have a few afternoons that they can get these errands done?

Do you know which girl is a spoiled Jap because she wants a car versus the girl who has some medical problems with her back and baruch Hashem can afford to get an inexpensive car to make her life just a little bit easier?

Do you know which girl's uncle has a huge share in El Al, or which boys mother works for American Airlines or which family just spent a lot on their credit card to pay for their other children's bais yaakov education so that they have a lot of miles which makes flying not "as big a deal" as it is to the general public?

You have the luxury here to "excuse" your seemingly ostentatious lifestyle (bugaboo, trips to italy) and I see nothing wrong with what you own and what you do - but to judge someone on the street because they have a certain look, or to see someone in a restaurant a few days a week with their friends or husband, and make judgments on them without allowing them the luxury of excusing their seemingly ostentatious lifestyle is not really fair.

Perhaps they are having marriage difficulties and a Rav told them to go out every day for lunch. Perhaps she just had a baby and is experiencing PPD and needs her husband around so he can't learn or needs to get out with friends. The possiblilites are endless which is why we are not allowed to judge others until we are in their shoes (which we can never be).
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 3:04 am
Quote:
The other "amother"-I am pretty sure I know who it is, and I think her goal is just to get me to leave Imamother altogether. Writing styles arent that hard to figure out. Its just funny that the same amother seems to follow me around.


Actually, I've never responded to any of your posts before and honestly never even noticed you before on the site. You must be thinking of someone else.

I was amother because I honestly am embarrassed that we had our in-laws spend $800 on a stupid Bugaboo. They aren't "all that" and for the vast majority it is a status symbol.

I find it very hilarious that someone living in E"Y with a Bugaboo AND an SUV (you gotta be kidding me?) is criticizing other people for lavishness. To have an SUV in E"Y is very impractical. A minivan is much more practical if you have a growing family. Doesn't look as nice though and is hardly a status symbol. SUV's in E"Y are very expensive, gas-guzzlers and are not easy to maneuver with a growing family.

Now, I'm not judging you. You want to look stylish when you drive and when your nanny pushes your baby down the street, that's fine with me. But I find it very strange that only YOU are allowed the luxuries in life (why is that?) when other people should be deprived. Why is that?
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meirav




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 3:05 am
IndyMom wrote:
You have the luxury here to "excuse" your seemingly ostentatious lifestyle (bugaboo, trips to italy) and I see nothing wrong with what you own and what you do - but to judge someone on the street because they have a certain look, or to see someone in a restaurant a few days a week with their friends or husband, and make judgments on them without allowing them the luxury of excusing their seemingly ostentatious lifestyle is not really fair.


SS321, I'm with IndyMom on this. I'm not sure what the difference is. If I would meet you on the street with your bugaboo, and your "neighbor who goes to Eilat 3x a year" with her bugaboo, why would I think you are less materialistic?

None of you robbed a bank for it, but none of you earned it.

This is why I'm not sure what your position is on this issue. You sound like you believe in the simple life, but live the grand life. I'm not criticizing your lifestyle; as long as you give maaser and pay taxes, you can buy whatever you like - in fact, it's good for the economy. I'm just wondering where your strong ideas about flaunting materialism come from, when you live a similar lifestyle to the people you are criticizing.

If you say, "well, I'm different, I have good reasons", well, so do the others, they just didn't share them with you. (See IndyMom's post)
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meirav




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 3:07 am
Also, I am enjoying the relatively calm atmosphere on this thread, and I am really interested in everyone's responses (although I have to wait for all the Americans to wake up!)

Please let's keep this an intellectual discussion, where we debate issues, and not people.
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catonmylap




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 6:01 am
As I understand it, her suv is in Brooklyn, not in Israel...

Some people come from wealthy families and grow up a certain way, used to certain things. It is extremely difficult for them to do anything else.

The frum world is encouraging very early marriages, and not even getting an education that will lead till parnassa till later.

You put everything together and you naturally have this situation.

I think those of us who had to do more on our own might be "too resentful." Get over it. You live your life, they live theirs...

I grew up in coupon clipping, sales shopping family. Being more frugal comes more naturally to me. Someone who went to a hotel every Pesach of their lives, bought clothing in Macys rather than k-mart has a much more difficult adjustment to an Israeli lifestyle.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 6:24 am
amother wrote:


I find it very hilarious that someone living in E"Y with a Bugaboo AND an SUV (you gotta be kidding me?) is criticizing other people for lavishness. To have an SUV in E"Y is very impractical. A minivan is much more practical if you have a growing family. Doesn't look as nice though and is hardly a status symbol. SUV's in E"Y are very expensive, gas-guzzlers and are not easy to maneuver with a growing family.

Ok let me clarify some stuff
First and foremost. I dont live in israel. Anything larger than like a honda civic sized car is pretty impractical in Israel. and then take the cost of gas there into consideration and...
SUV's in america arent a "status symbol." (at least not where I live). A Cadillac Escalade is. A Range Rover is, to a certain extent. A toyota RAV, Honda CRV, etc - not status symbols. I guess were coming from two different worlds.
With 2 kids, I dont really understand the need for a minivan. I dont really understand the point of a minivan in general, if an SUV seats just as many, but whatever. I also find them much harder to park and maneuver. Just my opinion.
amother wrote:

Now, I'm not judging you. You want to look stylish when you drive and when your nanny pushes your baby down the street, that's fine with me. But I find it very strange that only YOU are allowed the luxuries in life (why is that?) when other people should be deprived. Why is that?

whoa. Smile
Again. I dont look "stylish" when I drive, because most days, I take the train. Again. SUV's in Brooklyn to the best of my knowledge, and I have grown up here, arent status symbols. Like I just said, certain brands, certain models, are. SUV=a family car, end of story.
Also, lets just clarify. I have a "nanny" (who I call a "babysitter" because I think the very word nanny is suggestive of a certain way of life) because I am in medical school. That is pretty full time. My Mom and MIL cant take care of my kids all day, and even if they could, that wouldnt be very fair to ask of them. Its a necessity for me to have a full time caretaker for them, while I go to school. You want to start debating whether graduate school in and of itself is a luxury or a necessity, that is something else.
I dont think anyone should be deprived of luxuries if they can afford them. I think for someone at the age of 20, 21, etc to be FLAUNTING what they do, posting pictures, talking about it at their shabbos meals, doing so much of what they do IN ORDER to just "keep up," is just immature and is a problem with a segment of our society, particularly in the frum world. I see it all over NY, its not just a jewish thing, its sad though that so much of it has infiltrated our way of life. Its not the luxuries I have a problem with, trust me. Its the bragging and doing things to show off, "needing" a 3 bedroom apartment when you have no kids but why not...
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 6:31 am
IndyMom wrote:
Wow ss321 - you really have strong feelings about this topic.

yea I do. Its just something that has bothered me since I got married.

IndyMom wrote:

Do you follow these people around and know which ones are shopping

Do you know which girl is a spoiled Jap because she wants a car versus the girl who has some medical problems with her back

Do you know which girl's uncle has a huge share in El Al

lol, you make good points, I understand what you are sayin, b dan lekaf zechus and all. Which is why I dont judge a "single" individual. Youre right. This girl might have a NEED for her (not so inexpensive but whatever) car in Israel, that one might have a dad who is a travel agent and finds him $300 tickets home. But its not WHAT is done that I have a problem with, its how its done - with this seeming intent to "brag" and show off what you have. You go home 5 x/yr? ok, maybe you are having medical issues, and need to see a certain dr back home. But those arent the ones talking about their trips home or trips to europe or whatever. Posting all their pictures on facebook and other sites like that, blatantly advertising what they do where they go and where they shop, in order to make it a topic of conversation. I dont think anyone should "have" to live a "simple" lifestyle if they have the means to live more luxuriously. But there is a difference between living luxuriously, and living ostentatiously. I have a problem with the flaunting and bragging that goes on, the competition among these mostly uneducated, non-career minded young women with basically no ambitions in life other than to spend tattys money until DH finishes up with kollel and joins the family business. I dont have a problem with WHAT they do. I have a problem with how its done.
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ss321




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 14 2009, 6:41 am
meirav wrote:


None of you robbed a bank for it, but none of you earned it.

Why did I not "earn" something that we spent our own money on? IIRC, my aunt gave me money towards a stroller as a baby gift (200 or so), but the rest was hard earned money, I dont understand.
I dont have a problem with parents buying kids anything. I dont have a problem with parents spoiling their kids. I dont have a problem with kids having daddy's amex card till the day they die. I have a problem with people who do what they do "openly" "brazenly" in such a way that it seems like their only intent is to publicize their lifestyle (when said lifestyle is something they didnt even earn), brag to their other little 19 year old married friends, and see who can have more "fun" with DH during their year(s) off from real life in Yerushalayim...and then come back and be like, "yea...it was amaaazing, B"H dh was in kollel in E"Y, what an experience!"
meirav wrote:

This is why I'm not sure what your position is on this issue. You sound like you believe in the simple life, but live the grand life.

nah. Ill clarify again. I believe people should live within their means. For some people, whose parents can afford it, living within "their" means = living "within the means" of their parents. Whatever you do is fine. coupon clipping, buying used minivans, or shopping at the fanciest grocery stores, buying new cadillacs. But whatever you do, you should do, enjoy it, and not be looking over your shoulder at who has more and who has less, and bragging about what you do, and in the case of these "kollel" couples, talking about how DH is in "kollel" when really all it is is an extended honeymoon. Wanna say, we are moving to EY for a year to experience EY? and IY"H DH plans on learning while we are there? FINE. But is this cafe shopping jet setting lifestyle "Kollel?"

meirav wrote:

If you say, "well, I'm different, I have good reasons", well, so do the others, they just didn't share them with you. (See IndyMom's post)

great, again, do whatever you need. get a car in israel for your bad back. get a 3 bedroom apartment because you need space for your sick cousins from rechavya who stay with you 3x/wk. go out to lunch b/c your marriage counselor said you need to. Watch movies because...I dont know, your marraige counselor said so. but dont a) brag about those things, do them quietly, with a tzniyusdik and thankful attitude and b) think for one minute that what you are doing in Israel is even remotely similar to what the couples who come here, with husbands who DO learn all day, are doing.
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