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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:29 am
anybody interested/following this controversy, cherem and all?

http://zootorah.com/controversy/controversy.html


Last edited by Motek on Sun, Sep 10 2006, 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tefila




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:37 am
Oh Yeah will become hot....... ouch
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yehudis




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 12:59 pm
Hmm... I hadn't heard of it before. I heard of the books -- there was an interview with the author in Horizons a while ago. But I haven't read the books.

I looked at that link. I am not sure I understand what they're accusing him of. That he writes the world has existed for longer than 5765 years? There are plenty of midrashim to support that. There are other books on the subject. Or are they controversial too?

In general, the words of Chazal are absolutely true, but they were not meant to be taken literally. They are much deeper than what we get from superficial reading.
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:09 pm
here's the Yated's version of events:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.c.....n.htm

he is banned because 1) he doesn't accept that every word of Chazal is true, I.e. he thinks they can and do err (G-d forbid) 2) he believes the world exists for millions of years

Quote:
There are plenty of midrashim to support that.


plenty? like?

the accepted understanding is that each day of creation is a literal, 24 hour day

there are Jewish scientists who try to say otherwise, but this is not a mainstream Torah position, and is generally in the category of "apologia"

Quote:
There are other books on the subject. Or are they controversial too?


too Smile
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yehudis




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:19 pm
Motek wrote:

Quote:
There are plenty of midrashim to support that.


plenty? like?


Like the ones about different worlds that Hashem created before this one and then destroyed. I'm sure there are more; I don't remember, but I can look for them.

Quote:

the accepted understanding is that each day of creation is a literal, 24 hour day


Accepted by whom?

How can they be 24 hours before there was a concept of an hour? The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day. We measure hours by the sun. So how can we say anything about how long, in sun-hours, the first three days were?
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:28 pm
Quote:
Like the ones about different worlds that Hashem created before this one and then destroyed.


and the proof for millions of years of our present world is?

Quote:

the accepted understanding is that each day of creation is a literal, 24 hour day


Quote:
Accepted by whom?


all Jews, all Torah scholars, until the millions of years theory came up not that long ago, and that's when the apologists began trying to adjust Torah to fit science

Quote:
How can they be 24 hours before there was a concept of an hour? The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day. We measure hours by the sun. So how can we say anything about how long, in sun-hours, the first three days were?


good question and I can't answer it directly

what I can say is, the Torah say on day one: and it was evening and it was morning, one day, ditto for the 2nd and 3rd days
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ForeverYoung

Guest


 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:34 pm
it is a known fact that the Torah adjusts to humans -
just like it's sais Hand of hH', even thoug H' doesn't have a hand,

the Tora says morn, eve, day b4 they existed
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:35 pm
Quote:
How can they be 24 hours before there was a concept of an hour? The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day. We measure hours by the sun. So how can we say anything about how long, in sun-hours, the first three days were?


This is a famous question with tons of meforshim written on it. Look in Beraishis for them. I remember learning them clearly but not clearly enough to tell them over. ill look into it when I get a chance.
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yehudis




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 2:35 pm
Here's a book on Torah and science:

Challenge: Torah Views on Science and Its Problems
by Aryeh Carmell, Cyril Domb
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.....books
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 3:48 pm
ForeverYoung wrote:
it is a known fact that the Torah adjusts to humans -
just like it's sais Hand of hH', even thoug H' doesn't have a hand,


I'm glad you gave an example, because the wording of your first sentence is shock

how about saying, "The Torah is written in a way that humans can understand," for example, "Hashem's hand" etc.
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zuncompany




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 5:17 pm
oh please. People need to get lives.

Oh and I learned at machon chana that a day during creation might not have meant what we think of as a day. What do you think of that motek?

sara
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ForeverYoung

Guest


 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 5:18 pm
sorry, I am limited to what I can type b4 the keyboard gets a kick
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yehudis




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 5:41 pm
The Ramban says that the whole description of Creation is a deep secret that we can't possibly understand.

Rashi says that the Torah does not follow chronological order, and Heaven and Earth were not the first things created. And that was written a while ago Smile.

When we learned Bereishis in high school, our teacher showed us all kinds of midrashim which made it clear that the story of Creation is much more than you can get from a superficial reading. We talked a lot about how there is no contradiction between Torah and science. I don't remember the details -- that was 10 years ago.

Personally, I think this whole question is moot, because time is relative (both in Torah and in science), so saying that the first days lasted 24 hours or saying that the first days lasted billions of years doesn't really mean anything.

Hope that doesn't make me a heretic.
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rydys




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 6:23 pm
May I recommend a great book called "Thinking About Creation" by Dr. Andrew Goldfinger. He is a Chassidishe Physicist who addresses this exact topic. What is unique about his book is that he starts from the premis that torah is unerringly true, and discusses how science fits into the emes of torah, not trying to reconcile both with each other as the other authors do. In addition, the book is written so clearly that even a layman can understand the complex physics needed to understand the issues.
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Tefila




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 31 2005, 6:25 pm
Quote:
"Thinking About Creation" by Dr. Andrew Goldfinger.


Thank-You rydys and where would one get it?
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:56 am
Quote:
the accepted understanding is that each day of creation is a literal, 24 hour day


this is the accepted understanding, there are meforshim who question it, but it is still the accepted understanding.

the meforshim actually ask, if the sun was only created by the 4th day, how can it be that the first few days were also 24 hours long, because time is set by the sun.

Quote:
oh please. People need to get lives


which people? the newspaper? the author?

Quote:
Oh and I learned at machon chana that a day during creation might not have meant what we think of as a day


you were probably learning the different meforshim about maaseh beraishis, but the accepted understanding is still 24 hours days.
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zuncompany




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Feb 01 2005, 6:59 am
we never learned the 24 hr thing. this is the first in my almost 10 yrs of being frum hearing about this.


who needs to get a life? the people who banned it. JMHO don't jump on me about it thank you.

sara
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Feb 01 2005, 7:04 am
the world was created on 25th of Elul. Man was created 6 days later on Rosh Hashana. those are the 7 24-hr days of creation.

Quote:
who needs to get a life? the people who banned it. JMHO don't jump on me about it thank you.


I really had no idea who you were referring to when you said "people need to get lives." I didnt know if it was FY, Motek, or the link you were referring to, which is why I asked. I dont know why you thought I was jumping on you.
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Feb 01 2005, 7:15 am
so you think that these roshei yeshiva are over-reacting, hmmm. What qualifies you to disagree with Torah scholars and to denigrate their position? Do you think bans are made lightly? Do you think that books written by frum people are often pronounced heretical and ho hum, there go those closeminded, black-hatted medieval men again?

it so happens that the position taken by these non-chasidic rabbis is precisely the same as that of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, namely that the Sages do not make mistakes in any area (G-d forbid) and that the world is not millions of years old, but presently, 5765 years old.
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Feb 01 2005, 7:27 am
yehudis wrote:
Rashi says that the Torah does not follow chronological order, and Heaven and Earth were not the first things created. And that was written a while ago Smile.


and the implication is?

Quote:
Personally, I think this whole question is moot, because time is relative (both in Torah and in science), so saying that the first days lasted 24 hours or saying that the first days lasted billions of years doesn't really mean anything.


it's actually extremely important because it directly impacts on the foundational mitzva of Shabbos. We keep Shabbos because G-d created the world in six days and rested on the 7th.

re a previous comment:

the Rebbe writes:

Quote:
"There are those who wish to interpret the statement of our Sages that "G-d builds worlds and destroys them" - as well as the statements in Zohar and Kabbalistic works about primordial man - in the literal sense. In other words, that there was a physical man, and physical worlds, which were later destroyed. Only afterwards was our world created, which is now 5716 [at the time this letter was written] years old. This interpretation is indeed offered in several books, as well as in the works of some of the early Kabbalists.

In areas of Kabbala, as in all areas of Torah, there is only validity to opposing views until a ruling is reached and issued in accordance with the parameters of Torah discussion. Once a ruling is issued according to one opinion, only this opinion is considered true and valid with regard to practical decisions and actions. The same is true in this regard:

Until the Arizal, there was a discussion and a debate. The Arizal however, is considered authoritatative on Kabbala by world Jewry, including both Ashkenazim (such as the Alter Rebbe and the Gaon of Vilna) and Sephardim. He clearly expressed his deciding view by saying that the intent was never that there was a physical world similar to the one that now exists, as a physical cosmos came about only in the current "Shemitta cycle." From the Torah's perspective, one may no longer attempt to explain events (such as how Creation actually happened, etc.) in any manner at odds with his view".


from another letter from the Rebbe:

Quote:
"You asked: What should be your response when told that science allegedly has proof that the world has existed for more than 5715 [at the time this letter was written]? Can this be answered with the famous statement of our Sages that G-d "built worlds and destroyed them?"

The meaning of that statement is not that G-d actually created earlier physical worlds. Rather, the intent there is to spiritual worlds, as recorded by the Alter Rebbe - based on the Arizal's writings - in his Torah Ohr on the portion of Shemos.

Their statement that science has proofs is absolutely false. Science has no proofs at all, only estimations built on flimsy foundations."
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