Chazal, Science, Controversy ... - Slifkin

yehudis

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 5:14 pm

Motek, either I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding me. Can you restate what you agreed to from what I said? Because I am not following.

As to why this is important -- on a personal level, at this point in my life, it is not important, as I have said above.

However, at the beginning of my journey to Judaism, it was important. And honestly, I don't know where I would be now, if when I asked questions, people would just say, "Oh, who cares what science says, and what do they know anyway." Because when you grow up learning science and looking at the world through science, you don't just say, "Who cares?" You have to find a satisfactory answer.

There are thousands of people out there for whom this is important.

Moreover, it is very important to me when a religious Jew is called a heretic, simply because I care about him. I don't know him personally, and I don't know much about him, but shouldn't this be important to all of us?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 5:22 pm

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what makes it a valid idea? because scientists said so? do you accept everything that scientists say as valid?

no, but I didn't see anything that makes it invalid either.
Besides, 24 hrs means that there was time, but we still don't know when the time was created.

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and what do you mean when you say that time is insignificant to Hashem?

that He is above it and he can see past present & future at the same time, just like you can see an entire object at the same time (see my post about dimentions ^)

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What did He create it for then?

H' chose to create a 4-dimentional word, and I'm not questioning why He did it, at least for the lack of any other constructive ideas Smile

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Or do you also say that people are insignificant to Him?

where did I say anything like that?

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That everything in creation is insignificant to Him?

As far as the fact that it in no way effects Him - yes.
As far as the fact that this world is His creation for which He deeply cares - no.

Motek

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 6:20 pm

sarahd - what were you agreeing to with "hear, hear"?

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I didn't see anything that makes it invalid either.

the traditional Torah view invalidates it

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Can you restate what you agreed to from what I said?

"each day of Creation was 24 hours long"

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if when I asked questions, people would just say, "Oh, who cares what science says, and what do they know anyway."

I didn't suggest that this is an appropriate response.

If you'd like, you may ask a new question: how do you present seeming conflicts between science and Torah to not-yet observant Jews!

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it is very important to me when a religious Jew is called a heretic, simply because I care about him. I don't know him personally, and I don't know much about him, but shouldn't this be important to all of us?

it is extremely important
from other threads it seems that you and FY and Sarahd consider Rabbi Elyashiv an authority. What do you think of the fact that he is one of the signatories?

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He clearly says that the whole description of Creation cannot possibly be understood by us.

and therefore what? are you concluding that therefore you cannot know whether Creation days were 24 hour days or millions of years days? That it remains a mystery? Or do you come down on one side?

anny wrote:

It would probably seem wrong to use science to prove that the Torah is tru, because Hashem and Torah do not need to be proven (and we should believe in them even if no proves are available)

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According to the Rambam, we need to know with absolute certainty that the Torah is true. This has nothing to do with beliefs! It's a fact!

And if it takes science for a person to prove it to him/herself, then so be it.

I think what Anny means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Jews over the millenia knew that the Torah is true and they didn't know it was true because of science. When science or archaeology or any discipline comes out with a discovery or statement that corroborates Torah, it's nice to hear it but our belief or knowledge of the Torah's truth doesn't rise and fall with pronouncements in the newspaper (and the like)!

Science is a rather a poor way for a person to prove to himself that the Torah is true, because if you study science, medicine, etc. you see how scientists and doctors have changed many of their beliefs over the centuries. Maybe science can corroborate the truth of Torah today, and what will the person do if tomorrow, science says something that disproves something in Torah?

yehudis

Wed, Feb 02 2005, 7:49 pm

Motek wrote:

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Can you restate what you agreed to from what I said?

"each day of Creation was 24 hours long"

Define "hour." Or do you agree with my definition? This is the part that I don't understand.

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If you'd like, you may ask a new question: how do you present seeming conflicts between science and Torah to not-yet observant Jews!

Sounds good. What's your answer?

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from other threads it seems that you and FY and Sarahd consider Rabbi Elyashiv an authority. What do you think of the fact that he is one of the signatories?

Well, I am also using the Internet, and imamother is hardly for business purposes. (Working on my writing skills? Hmm...)

But anyway, you said that there were two points the rabbis were against: the age of the Universe and the statement that Chazal were wrong. Not to say that I am on the level of these rabbis, but I also have trouble with the second one. Maybe that was the reason Rabbi Elyashiv signed it. We don't really know.

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and therefore what? are you concluding that therefore you cannot know whether Creation days were 24 hour days or millions of years days? That it remains a mystery? Or do you come down on one side?

Therefore, when it says "hour," we don't really know what it means.

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I think what Anny means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Jews over the millenia knew that the Torah is true and they didn't know it was true because of science.

Of course. But those Jews grew up with the Torah. Their perception of the world was through the Torah. There were no non-religious Jews then!

Non-religious Jews in our times grow up with science and perceive the world through science. Therefore, they need to come to the Torah through science. (Not all, of course, but many.)

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Science is a rather a poor way for a person to prove to himself that the Torah is true, because if you study science, medicine, etc. you see how scientists and doctors have changed many of their beliefs over the centuries. Maybe science can corroborate the truth of Torah today, and what will the person do if tomorrow, science says something that disproves something in Torah?

Our knowledge of the world is generally obtained indirectly. And people operate based on this indirect information that is available to them at a given point in time. For example, if a person is sick, C"V, he or she would seek medical help currently available and not worry about the current methods changing in ten years. How is this any different than making a decision about keeping the Torah?

Anny

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 11:26 am

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yes, but I also said that I draw inspiration from sceintific discoveries that prove what the Torah sais.

In the world where everybody (including family) is against us, this helps me go on, because it resonates with my upbringing, as yehudis said:

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Because when you grow up learning science and looking at the world through science, you don't just say, "Who cares?" You have to find a satisfactory answer.

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from other threads it seems that you and FY and Sarahd consider Rabbi Elyashiv an authority. What do you think of the fact that he is one of the signatories?

Motek, where does R Eliashev sais that each day of creation lasted for 24 hrs, as we know them today?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Feb 03 2005, 12:32 pm

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I didn't see anything that makes it invalid either.

the traditional Torah view invalidates it

exactly where does it say that at the time of the creation the day was 24 hrs, as WE KNOW THEM NOW???

also:

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YOU selected the following paragraph:

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And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

and under it you wrote:

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sounds fine to me

which implies that you agree that we do not know what days and nights were like b4 the creation was completed.

so what are you trying to prove or disprove now?

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what I know is what yehudis wrote, and we both agree she wrote it well, that creation days were 24 hours

yehudis also wrote, right under, that

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The length of the hours was determined by the length of the day (or the respective day and night). Therefore, each daytime hour was 1/12 of the length of the day and each nighttime hour was 1/12 of the length of the night. And that's all we can say really, because we don't know how long the days or the nights were in terms of hours that could be measured by a clock.

you either didn't read everything or took her statement out of context

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what will the person do if tomorrow, science says something that disproves something in Torah?

as far as I know, there is NOT ONE soundly proved theory that contradicts the Torah. it is a known fact that many scientist & mathematitians become frum as the result of their research. just like the man who was asked to help with the codes in Torah in Israel

Motek

Fri, Feb 04 2005, 3:42 pm

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Define "hour." Or do you agree with my definition?

that each hour was 1/12 of the day or night? as far as I know, that sounds right

I read and reread that paragraph FY.

I don't understand why you and FY care how long an hour out of the 24 hours of a day, is, and I'm not proving or disproving anything

what are you both getting at with that point?

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If you'd like, you may ask a new question: how do you present seeming conflicts between science and Torah to not-yet observant Jews!

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Sounds good. What's your answer?

I recommend that they read "Mind Over Matter" which is a compilation of letters etc of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on science, technology, and medicine, where this question is covered quite thoroughly

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Maybe that was the reason Rabbi Elyashiv signed it. We don't really know.

you can know if you read the ban

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For example, if a person is sick, C"V, he or she would seek medical help currently available and not worry about the current methods changing in ten years. How is this any different than making a decision about keeping the Torah?

speaking for myself, there is no way I would want to commit to an all-encompassing, overwhelming, all-consuming way of life if I didn't think it was true.

if the medical help has been proven to help people with a certain condition, there would be no reason to refuse it

I see no comparison between the mashal and the nimshal.

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where does R Eliashev sais that each day of creation lasted for 24 hrs, as we know them today?

I don't know that he said those specific words, but he certainly believes that, since that has always been Jewish belief.

go back to the links to see what was said, maybe you'll find it there

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exactly where does it say that at the time of the creation the day was 24 hrs, as WE KNOW THEM NOW???

this was a given, the way the Torah has been understood for millenia

I don't have a specific commentary at hand to quote.

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as far as I know, there is NOT ONE soundly proved theory that contradicts the Torah.

true, but there are theories that are accepted as facts by some people, despite their not being soundly proven, such as evolution and the age of the universe and this is where the trouble begins, because certain frum people, like Slifkin, accept these as facts and then proceed to try to adjust Torah to fit these scientific "facts"

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Feb 06 2005, 10:00 pm

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I don't understand why you and FY care how long an hour out of the 24 hours of a day, is, and I'm not proving or disproving anything

You're proving that each and day of creation is equivalent to day as we know it today.

I dissagree.

I did not see ANY proves to your statement. Untill I see them, I will not change my mind.

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there are theories that are accepted as facts by some people, despite their not being soundly proven, such as evolution and the age of the universe

neither of these issues are eccepted as facts by the scientists.

As a matter of fact, Darvin called his theory a THEORY, and said that the proves will/ need/ must be found. It is a known fact they weren't.

Theestimated age of the universe cahanges once in a while and about 2 yrs ago it was halfed!!!

and to quote myself again:

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s far as I know, there is NOT ONE soundly proved theory that contradicts the Torah. it is a known fact that many scientist & mathematitians become frum as the result of their research. just like the man who was asked to help with the codes in Torah in Israel

Last edited by ForeverYoung on Mon, Feb 07 2005, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

yehudis

Mon, Feb 07 2005, 12:22 am

Motek wrote:

that each hour was 1/12 of the day or night? as far as I know, that sounds right

You realize that this is a tautology, right? In other words, I can say the same thing about any interval of time. Like, the interval of time between 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. consists of 12 hours, with each hour being 1/12 of that interval. Of course, those people that measure time by a clock Smile

would say that each of these "hours" is really 5 minutes, but so what?

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speaking for myself, there is no way I would want to commit to an all-encompassing, overwhelming, all-consuming way of life if I didn't think it was true.

I didn't say that people commit to Torah without thinking that it's true. What I am trying to say is that people commit to Torah based on the available evidence.

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if the medical help has been proven to help people with a certain condition, there would be no reason to refuse it

Proven? It's never proven, it's only statistically significant.

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I see no comparison between the mashal and the nimshal.

Don't you think that choosing a course of treatment for a life-threatening illness, lo aleinu, is just as important as choosing to commit to Torah? But such a choice is never based on complete proofs.

BTW, I asked Rabbi C., a local Chabad Rabbi, what he thinks about this controversy. He said that while the Lubavitcher Rebbe was against interpreting the six days of Creation as lasting for billions of years, nevertheless, he never said that believing that is a herecy and he never said that people who believe it should be put in cherem. He said that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wouldn't have signed the ban.

gryp

Mon, Feb 07 2005, 3:15 pm

(this post is off-topic so its in ()...

a few points to ponder about time and creation:

In the beginning (1:1)
"In the beginning" refers to the beginning of time --the first, indivisible moment, before which time did not exist.
(Soforno)

Therein lies the answer to the question, posed by certain philosophers, as to why did G-d create the world only when He did? Why not one year, a hundred years or a million years earlier, since whatever reasons He had for creation were certainly just as valid then? But time is itself part of G-ds creation. We cannot ask why the world was not created earlier, since there is no stretch of time that can be termed before creation.
(Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi)

Time was the first creation; thus the first mitzvah is Kiddush Hachodesh--the sanctification time by setting the months and seasons of the Jewish calendar.
(The Lubavitcher Rebbe)

And the earth was formless and void...(1:2)
Said Rabbi Judah in the name of Rav: Ten things were created on the first day: heaven and earth, formlessness and void, light and darkness, wind and water, the measure of day and the measure of night.
(Talmud, Chaggigah 12a)

And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day (1:31)
The six days of creation embody the whole of history, for the world shall exist six thousand years (Talmud, Rosh Hashanah 31a); which is why it is said that "G-d's day is a thousand years" (Midrash Rabbah).

The first day of creation, which saw the creation of light, corresponds to the first millennium of history--the millennium of Adam, the light of the world, when the world was still saturated with knowledge of its Creator and was sustained by the indiscriminate benevolence of G-d. The second day, on which the Creator distinguished between the spiritual and the physical elements of His creation, yielded a second millennium of judgment and discrimination--as reflected in the Flood which wiped out a corrupt humanity and spared only the righteous Noah and his family. The third day, on which the land emerged from the sea and sprouted forth greenery and fruit-bearing trees, encapsulates the third millennium, in which Abraham began teaching the truth of the One G-d and the Torah was given on Mount Sinai. The fourth day, on which G-d created the sun and the moon, the two great luminaries: the greater luminary... and the lesser luminary, corresponds to the fourth millennium, during which the First Temple and the Second Temple in Jerusalem served as the Divine abode from which light emanated to the entire world. The fifth day, the day of fish, birds and reptiles, represents the lawless and predatory Dark Ages of the fifth millennium. The sixth day, whose early hours saw the creation of the beasts of the land, followed by the creation of man, is our millennium--a millennium marked by strong, forceful empires, whose beastly rule will be followed by the emergence of Moshiach, the perfect man who brings to realization the divine purpose in creation and ushers in the seventh millennium--the World to Come--a time of perfect peace and tranquility.

(Nachmanides)

I brought this up because here is something I didnt know. I thought time started on Wednesday with the creation of the sun, but many meforshim say it was created straight away.)

Motek

Mon, Feb 07 2005, 8:21 pm

thanks RG, those are helpful sources

and there's this:

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Talmud and Rashi and Nahmanides (that is the kabala) all say that Six Days of Genesis were six regular 24-hour periods not longer than our work week!

this is a quote from this article on Aish's website, which was pulled for review and then put back up. One of the comments that follows the article says, "this article was revised in accord with recent rabbinic decrees." Unfortunately, the article does not have footnotes so I don't know where in the Talmud, Rashi, and Nachmanides he is referring to

I haven't read it yet, and have no comments about it (yet):

http://www.aish.com/societyWor.....e.asp

an additional point/proof about the first 6 days of Creation being 24 hour days is that our calendar is calculated from Creation, with 24 hour days being a given - meaning, that our calendar is "set up" with 19 year cycles, and the 3rd, 6th ,9th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years are leap years which are calculated from Creation. Our molads (beginning of a new month) are also calculated since Creation with 24 hour days which determines when everything, all holidays, come out.

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neither of these issues are eccepted as facts by the scientists.

of course they are! and they are taught as facts in schools across America

and the Theory of Relativity, though "merely" a theory, is also accepted as fact

as the Lubavitcher Rebbe writes, "All of the sciences, even those that are called "exact sciences," are based on assumptions that are completed unfounded, and are no more than agreed upon theories."

the only reason why certain frum people find it necessary to alter the accepted understanding of Torah is in order to make it fit with accepted scientific ideas such as millions of years and evolution

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What I am trying to say is that people commit to Torah based on the available evidence.

which evidence specifically are you talking about?

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It's never proven, it's only statistically significant.

and you want to commit to Torah because statistically, it makes sense to do so? it's a good bet? avodas Hashem is based on good odds?

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the opposite!
I think that choosing to commit to Torah is more impt. than choosing a course of treatment

Frankly, I find the comparison distasteful, for it reduces the commitment to Torah to something like choosing a good stock porfolio or the like

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But such a choice is never based on complete proofs.

and the truth is, we do not really choose Torah ... Our souls are long committed to it. Our souls were present at Sinai at the giving of the Torah.

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he never said that believing that is a herecy and he never said that people who believe it should be put in cherem

there are two reasons why Slifkin's books (not him) were banned

you have focused on only one of them

the other reason is that he maintains that Chazal could be wrong and were wrong (ch'v)

Motek

Tue, Feb 08 2005, 11:42 am

it is accepted as fact by most people and most scientists which you will notice if you pick up most magazines (Newsweek, Time) and just about anything out there

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how do you present seeming conflicts between science and Torah to not-yet observant Jews

I read an article about a Moroccan born, Israeli scientist, Dr. Shlomo Avital who is a doctor of biochemistry. For over fifty years now, he is involved in development and research at the Weitzmann Institute of Science in Rechovot, and he became a mekurav of Chabad.

When asked, "What do you think is the best way to reach scientists in order to be mekarev them?" he answered:

“The most important thing is to speak their language. You have to give scientists examples from science. For example, there are objects we see with our eyes and there are things that exist which we cannot see except with a microscope. There are even tinier things we can’t even see with a microscope, but we all know that they exist like atoms and electrons. This enables a person to understand that there are spiritual dimensions, things we cannot see, but tzaddikim can see.

“Although there’s a theory that says that scientists think they know it all, the truth is the opposite. A scientist is constantly discovering new things, and he knows that yesterday he knew less than today. With this approach you can make progress.”

what I notice in this answer is that Avital didn't say prove the truth of Torah through science, rather, speak to scientists in their language.