How do you afford life?

roza

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 4:30 pm

and, yes, once women joined the workforce, the prices went up, to fit the average two- income family budget.

Just a reality of current economy in US.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 4:43 pm

Motek, I thought you were being funny when after all of those quotes, you quoted me asking if you faint when you open the VISA bill and you said,
"of course". You must have been referring to the first question about changing all of these messages.
I will give you an example of a message of what to me would be overspending. Our son had a simple chassunah in EY, but getting there and staying there was not cheap. We made all of the sheva brochas in EY, rather than fly the new couple back to the states. Someone ( who I regard as quite poor) told me that we really should have made something for the community in Detroit. That is what he felt that he would have done. BH it was our 3rd chassunah in 25 months. I didn't see the need to make an expensive sheva brochas in Detroit but this person felt that I should have.
People are great at spending other people's money!

amother

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 6:28 pm

Quote:

numerous speeches and articles, the frum world has been urged to cut down on simcha expenses in many ways.

The fact that peple give speeches and write articles urging the frum world to cut down, is in itself evidence that pressure is out there to do otherwise.

gryp

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 6:57 pm

Quote:

GR - what's the interesting story?

ok, Motek, here you have it:
ill have to look it up now to write every detail, but basically:

The Rebbe was farbrenging (Taf Shin Tes Vav), and it was this time of year for Yud Gimmel Tammuz (speaking about the Friediker (Previous) Rebbe).

The Rebbe asked the crowd in 770 to donate to the institutions world-wide that the Frierdiker Rebbe established, the Shluchim that were sent out to different places by the Friediker Rebbe. (I remember Africa, Australia, cant remember the others.)

So the people in 770 wrote down on cards the donations they would give.

Then the Rebbe continued and said everyone should sing "Mimitzrayim Ge'altanu," because "Mitzrayim" comes from the word "Maytzarim" (boundaries) and people should feel themselves coming out of their boundaries and give more!

Mimitzrayim Ge'altanu was sung, and then the Rebbe told a story (from the Alter Rebbe) about a wealthy man and a wagondriver who were traveling and on the way had to stop for Shabbos. they got seperated in their preparations for Shabbos, and coming out of the bathhouse the wealthy man saw another wagondriver who needed help. he couldnt just leave him there, so he took the time to help him right until Shabbos, and he had to run to shul filthy with his clothing ripped.
In the meantime, the wagondriver he came with got to shul with plenty of time and invited a crowd of people for the seudah.
the wealthy man couldnt invite anyone and spent Shabbos alone.
Eventually, when both of their Neshamos came to the Heavenly Court, it was decreed that they both have to come back down shock

because they got mixed up!!! the wagondriver was supposed to help the other wagondriver, and the wealthy man was supposed to have all those guests for Shabbos. shock

So, the Rebbe continued, there are those here who know how to sing, and those here who have "Koach" in their pockets.
but it looks like theyve switched roles shock

, those who have nothing in their pockets are giving more, and those who have in their pockets are merely singing loud. shock

So lets fix this, those who are supposed to sing should be the ones singing, and those who are supposed to donate should be the ones donating!

I really enjoyed this story, hope others did too. Smile

Tefila

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 7:52 pm

Thanks gr

gryp

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 7:57 pm

glad you enjoyed it, Tefilah Smile

I found it quite fascinating for many reasons!

Raisin

Fri, Jul 07 2006, 3:45 am

Southern Bubby, I don't think that is a common practice at all - to make sheva brochos in the chossons hometown. Unless for example, you would have had dear relatives who were not able to travel to the wedding (elderly parents, for example) and you wanted to make something so they could participate. Or if the Chossons city is very close by. We had Sheva brochos in my dh's city, but it was only 3 hours away by car so it wasn't a big deal. Or unless you just have so much money you really are at a loss how to spend it. Smile

Maybe your friend doesn't know your financial situation (well, why should he? do your bank statements go to his house as well?) and was just making a friendly suggestion.

chen

Fri, Jul 07 2006, 8:13 am

southernbubby wrote:

. BH it was our 3rd chassunah in 25 months.

mazal tov! mazal tov! mazal tov! nor af simchos!

southernbubby wrote:

.I didn't see the need to make an expensive sheva brochas in Detroit

good for you!

southernbubby wrote:

.but this person felt that I should have.
People are great at spending other people's money!

ain't that the truth?

Motek

Sun, Jul 09 2006, 1:31 pm

roza wrote:

There is a book "The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke"

yes, once women joined the workforce, the prices went up, to fit the average two- income family budget.

Fascinating. Glad you brought that up roza. So what's happening is (and I see women promoting this on the forum) parents urge their daughters to get degrees so they can get jobs so they can work and help support their families (and to have a backup in case of disaster, another topic entirely) but if women DIDN'T join the workforce, but stayed home as they mostly did, decades ago, oh boy, how our lives would be different.

There was another book, "Rich Man, Poor Man," that also explained how the conventional view of "get a degree, get a job" puts people in the rat race and they don't keep up with their expenses or end up living like blue collar workers.

southernbubby - sorry, I should have eliminated the visa part of the quote, yes, I was responding to the question about changes, glad that was clarified! And of course the person had no right telling you what you "should" have done.

GR - thanks for the story, yes, food for thought

btw - The Divrei Chaim of Tzanz was known not to allow money to remain overnight in his home, he gave it all away. There are many stories about great people who even borrowed in order to give tzedaka!

chen

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 7:54 am

MosheDovid'sMom wrote:

chen wrote:

everyone gets the general idea--even if they are not saving in general "for a rainy day" but just in order to buy a big-ticket item that they would not get otherwise.

This sounds really smart, chen, but how do you encourage them not to spend the $$ they get?

you can't really force it--all you can do is encourage. opening a savings account and letting them see the money add up is one incentive. some bamks have fee-free passbook accounts for children up to age 18.

"matching" funds if you can afford to (add an equal sum to whatever they deposit) is a great idea. If you can't afford that, you can add just a percentage--say, add 5% to any deposits they make. or you could offer an incentive of some treat whenever their savings reach a certain level--dollar amount or percentage of earnings. the incentive can be monetary--you will add $1 every time their savings reach some multiple of $100, e.g.--or something else: a trip, a pizza, a privilege.

you could also make a family rule that they must put in savings at least a certain percentage of what they get. they have to give maaser to tzedokoh, so why not have maaser for savings?

some of my kids seem to squirrel away nearly every cent, while others seem to spend evrything as soon as they earn it. it's a matter of personality.

MosheDovid'sMom wrote:

I came from a "thrifty" (poor) household as well.

Yeah, in my youth I was embarrassed or annoyed by the thrifty measures my family took, seeing them as a sign of poverty or stinginess. Today I call it being "environmentally responsible" and "conserving resources" (even some rich people do it) and it is a point of pride with me. (Maybe not with my kids, though!)

chen

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 8:03 am

southernbubby wrote:

I have heard and read and even on this website seen situations where yeshiva rebbes or people working for organizations were late being paid or were not paid.

a regular, predictable situation in my son's yeshivoh.

southernbubby wrote:

I have heard rumors of stores that closed because of all of the frum people buying on credit and not paying.

our kosher grocery closed, more from rising rent and declining demand, although they also extended lots of credit to people, many of whom I'm sure never paid up.

southernbubby wrote:

part because frum people shop where it is the cheapest and kosher stores, with their high priced specialty items, are not for poor people. Most of the frum people are going to Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc., loading up on staples and cooking from scratch.

many people in our community--especially the younger and more affluent-- go to the suburbs to shop. suburban stores are larger, better lit, more spacious, have a huge selection, and rarely run out of merchandise, whereas the little kosher grocery would often run out of things and not get delivery for weeks. prices may or may not be better in the suburban stores, but people who have cars and can get to the burbs like the service. and selection and are willing to pay for it. that is the other part of what killed our kosher grocery.

chen

Mon, Jul 10 2006, 8:57 am

amother wrote:

chen wrote:

We afford it by doing our own thing and not caring what "everyone" does, wears, and so on.

I admire that.

me, too!

although it took me many years to reach this level. as a child I most certainly did care, and having a tan bookbag when all the "in" crowd had the stylish blue one, or the 8-crayon box of Crayolas when evryone else had at least 16, if not 24, was very painful.

amother wrote:

They rented for many years until they bought a house.

my parents have never owned a house, and I very much doubt that we ever will, either.

amother wrote:

[They don't own a car.

what, car?my parents didn't even have drivers' licenses!

amother wrote:

[Although I don't know my father's salary, my impression is that he could have supported a somewhat larger family on the same salary quite nicely.

Ha! My father was out of work several times, due to various factors such as a union strike, hostile takeover of his employer by another company, on-the-job injury, layoffs due to economic downturns, and so on. for a few years we had to live with my grandmother until my father found work. The only reason we didn't go to public school is because a childless rleative footed the bill for Hebrew day school.

amother wrote:

So what happened? Why is it that you and your husband chen, are working fulltime and living so frugally?

partly by choice. I am not impressed by big houses, fancy cars and lavish vacations because I have learned that these things don't make for a good person or a happy outlook.

My father is the least successful, financially, of all his siblings--by a margin as wide as the Atlantic--, yet I believe he is the most satisfied with his life. He is truly someach bechelko, something I cannot necessarily say for my well-to-do relatives. AAMOF, I have one relative who is always complaining how he can't make a living. He actually makes a perfectly good living, but in his small community he mingles with people who are out-and-out rich. I'm talking the kind of people who can dedicate a building to the yeshivoh ketanoh in honor of a family simchoh. So in his eyes he is poverty-stricken, which is not at all the case.

I have also learned that houses, cars, furs, jewels and lavish simchos MAY NOT EVEN BE PAID FOR! And if they are paid for, they may have been paid for on the cheshbon of plenty of "little guys". (We know people who were practically bankrupted by clients who owed them huge sums and never paid. they were too busy paying for their big houses, boats, furs, vacations, etc.) I just love the bumper sticker, intended to be put on old jalopies, that reads "don't laugh--it's paid for!"

I view being able to live as inexpensively as possible as a challenge and a creative outlet, too. I have never understood people who brag how much they spent on something. This is a meileh? any fool can spend lots of money. My friends are more likely to brag how little they spent on something! This shows creativity, foresight, planning, ability of some sort, (and of course a lot of siyatoh dishmayoh). what is the point of my going to a store to buy a lavish and expensive Queen esther costume for purim? OTOH, if I can come up with a Queen esther costume made from a cereal box, gold foil saved from chocoalte wrappers, ribbons saved from the chocoalte box, jewels saved from a preschool project, an old shabbos robe, and sequins salvaged from an old simcha gown...now that is an accomplishment!

Furthermore, I have a horror of debt and am determined to stay out of it.

amother wrote:

[Is it becomes times are different? More expensive now?

That is also part of it. a generation ago, one was advised to spend no more than 1/4 of one's income on rent. now the recommendation is 1/3, and many people spend far more than that. real estate evrywhere has gone sky-high, and within walking distance of an orthodox shul is almost always the most expensive place to live--even if it is not an especially nice part of town.

amother wrote:

[Did both your parents have to work in order to support you and your siblings?

my mother worked part-time, because we needed the $ desperately. I work because I have to, although if we could have afforded it I'd preferred to work only part time when the children were small. dh works like a slave but does not make very much money--partly because of those clients who are too busy paying for their new cars to pay him, and partly for other reasons. even if I didn't make a penny I'd still have to work b/c our health insurance is through my employer.

amother wrote:

[And if any of the questions to you chen were too personal, sorry.

well, you don't know me, do you? shock

Motek

Fri, Aug 11 2006, 1:50 pm

chen wrote:

My friends are more likely to brag how little they spent on something! This shows creativity, foresight, planning, ability of some sort, (and of course a lot of siyatoh dishmayoh).

I understand what you're saying yet it gets on my nerves when people go on and on about the bargains they got too. Eating a meal and hearing which store the food was bought in, at what price. Constant driving around to get food items a, b, and c at store D because they're on sale and then getting food items e, f, and g at store E because they're on sale. I love getting things on sale too, no problem with that. It's when it becomes a major focus in life that it becomes Rolling Eyes

to me.

As someone said to me - you know, you're right! You can be just as involved in gashmius when living simply as those who live lavishly!

A family Shabbos, lots of take-out. Asking the one who bought the food where it was bought. Answer: drove around to each store and got whatever bargain they were offering.

I would like to go to each store to get the food that tastes best!

lubcoralsprings

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 5:25 pm

I think there is always going to be someone richer then you so you just need to be happy with your lot.

su7kids

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 5:40 pm

Saving money for sems and yeshivas is a nice idea for our kids. I'd rather they put their money towards their weddings and their marriage.

Managing financially with a large family is not easy at all. Myhusband allowed me to be a stay at home mom, and wh ile I did what I could when I could, whatever I earned was pocket money.

The Yeshiva tuitions and high school tuitions can cripple a family.

There is a mitzvah of pru -'uru and yet when you do, you're punished by having to pay tuition.

And then are those of us who are humiliated asking for scholarships. Some are not, we are. We do it, but it causes terrible tension and stress year after year.

amother

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 5:48 pm

Tuition is crazy I know. Why does it have to be so high? A person high up in the company my husband works for pays eighty you got it EIGHTY thousand dollers a year for six kids to go to school. It's nuts! We could never do that but I am still determined to have a large family..if I have to beg I guess I will!

Motek

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 5:50 pm

I understand what you're saying about tuitition, the humiliation, the tension, nevertheless, this line bothers me:

su7kids wrote:

Myhusband allowed me to be a stay at home mom.

That's your role, your right, your children need you, and your husband handed you a kesuba which said he would provide. You are under no obligation to join the workforce.

amother

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 6:01 pm

nit pick nit pick Rolling Eyes

bandcm

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 6:52 pm

Motek wrote:

I understand what you're saying about tuitition, the humiliation, the tension, nevertheless, this line bothers me:

su7kids wrote:

Myhusband allowed me to be a stay at home mom.

That's your role, your right, your children need you, and your husband handed you a kesuba which said he would provide. You are under no obligation to join the workforce.

Motek you are 100% right about that. I share your opinion and it really bothers me to hear people say "so did you find a job for next year? No? so how will you manage?" It's not the wife's responsibility to find ways to manage, other than being a thrifty housewife, of course.

bandcm

Sun, Aug 13 2006, 6:54 pm

amother wrote:

nit pick nit pick Rolling Eyes

Why do people go anonymous to be rude?