How do you afford life?

suomynona

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 7:58 am

Mommy912 wrote:

I do not think that this is a smart or fair thing for parents to do to their teenage daughters.
This is no different from credit card debt. Seminaries generally do not prepare the girls with high earning potentials and these girls now have to pay back thousands of dollars to the schools from the money that they earn - over the span of a few years.
If someone can't afford an expensive seminary they should find a cheaper option.

They only let you owe $700 per year of sem. It was not such an expensive sem to begin with.
$700 or $1400 is doable for most single working girls.

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:04 am

suomynona wrote:

Mommy912 wrote:

They only let you owe $700 per year of sem. It was not such an expensive sem to begin with.
$700 or $1400 is doable for most single working girls.

But what if they get married straight out of sem?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:19 am

mummyof6 wrote:

suomynona wrote:

Mommy912 wrote:

They only let you owe $700 per year of sem. It was not such an expensive sem to begin with.
$700 or $1400 is doable for most single working girls.

But what if they get married straight out of sem?

it would be the same as havign to pay back college loans. its something that you just have to do and if it takes years, then so be it.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:34 am

mummyof6 wrote:

ytwh1 wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

suomynona wrote:

Mommy912 wrote:

They only let you owe $700 per year of sem. It was not such an expensive sem to begin with.
$700 or $1400 is doable for most single working girls.

But what if they get married straight out of sem?

it would be the same as havign to pay back college loans. its something that you just have to do and if it takes years, then so be it.

[/quote]But isn't the idea of sem to prepare a girl for marriage, not to burden her with debts and make everything even harder?

Quote:

but it can also help her to see that life, unfortunately, revolves around money. $700 is not an astronomical amount if she is working, so I see nothing wrong with it. and if she goes to that sem, she knows that that is an option for her.

avigayil

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 2:32 pm

How about girls saving from early teen years.
As most know here, I am a ger. However my family and many friends came from religious 'non jewish' homes that believe in large families.
Girls babysat from age 11 or 12 and on and saved their money. By high school graduation, they had large chunks of change saved.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't put this on kids. Seminaries now cost somewhere between 15K-20K. Something has to give.

chen

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 3:06 pm

[quote="avigayil"]How about girls saving from early teen years.
quote]

boys, too. and not just from the teen years, but right from the start. each of our children got a savings account at a very early age, and a portion of all chanuka gelt, birthday and graduation gifts, moeny earned from various jobs, and so on went into the account, after maaser went to tzedoko. (they get to choose where their tzedoko money goes, too, once the pushke is full. The pushkes are just generic boxes, not from any organization.) they are encouraged although not forced to save as much as possible rather than spend the money on "something they want". of course some children pick up that lesson more strongly than others, but everyone gets the general idea--even if they are not saving in general "for a rainy day" but just in order to buy a big-ticket item that they would not get otherwise.

PinkandYellow

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 4:13 am

[quote="chen"]

avigayil wrote:

How about girls saving from early teen years.
quote]

boys, too. and not just from the teen years, but right from the start. each of our children got a savings account at a very early age, and a portion of all chanuka gelt, birthday and graduation gifts, moeny earned from various jobs, and so on went into the account, after maaser went to tzedoko. (they get to choose where their tzedoko money goes, too, once the pushke is full. The pushkes are just generic boxes, not from any organization.) they are encouraged although not forced to save as much as possible rather than spend the money on "something they want". of course some children pick up that lesson more strongly than others, but everyone gets the general idea--even if they are not saving in general "for a rainy day" but just in order to buy a big-ticket item that they would not get otherwise.

This sounds really smart, chen, but how do you encourage them not to spend the $$ they get? I know as a kid if I had any money I would be at the candy store in 5 seconds flat, and I came from a "thrifty" (poor) household as well.

southernbubby

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 8:41 am

Amother, there are frum business owners who are reliable. I was thinking of organizations and yeshivas. I have heard and read and even on this website seen situations where yeshiva rebbes or people working for organizations were late being paid or were not paid. A profit making business would have to pay employees before meeting other expenses. Whereas people might feel an obligation to continue teaching without getting paid, few people will work in a business without pay. If you read some of the threads about frum people and rent, you will see that landlords sometimes do not get paid. I have heard rumors of stores that closed because of all of the frum people buying on credit and not paying. Of course, this was years ago because store owners now put a cap on how much each person can owe. A kosher store in our community is now in liquidation. Part of it's loss is to politics and part because frum people shop where it is the cheapest and kosher stores, with their high priced specialty items, are not for poor people. Most of the frum people are going to Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc., loading up on staples and cooking from scratch.

amother

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 10:37 am

southernbubby wrote:

A kosher store in our community is now in liquidation. Part of it's loss is to politics and part because frum people shop where it is the cheapest and kosher stores, with their high priced specialty items, are not for poor people. Most of the frum people are going to Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc., loading up on staples and cooking from scratch.

The reason the store in your community is closing is because of the politics in that community. Their prices were cheaper than the other kosher store there, yet they were driven out of the community. The other kosher kosher store there did whatever they could to drive the owners and their business out of the community. (I am not at liberty to elaborate on what I said, but there is a lot that happened concerning the store and competition not being allowed there that drove them out of town) I know that, I usd to live there.

Motek

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 5:45 pm

southernbubby wrote:

We always paid full tuition and had one income until all of my children were in school.

It does make a difference whether that one income is a doctor's income or a blue collar worker's or teacher's or ...

Quote:

The message that we receive goes something like this

Who's "we"? I guess you mean YOU. I haven't gotten the same messages you got. For instance:

Quote:

Make elaborate simchas and don't leave out anyone.

On the contrary. Both from my home as well as numerous speeches and articles, the frum world has been urged to cut down on simcha expenses in many ways.

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Give a lot of tzedukah and don't turn anyone down

.

Nobody has ever said how much to give. You can give $1 if that's what you have.

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Make your home balabatish

Meaning fancy? Where on earth are you hearing these messages?

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and buy new clothes and jewelry for each YomTov.

it's halacha and only three times a year and for simchas yomtov and it's supposed to be within your means

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Wear only the best sheital

says who? the ads?

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Attend visiting day at camp, even if you need to fly there

.

maybe you shouldn't be sending your child to a camp he/she needs to fly to (unless there are extenuating circumstances like living somewhere on shlichus)

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Do not forget to buy gifts for all of the BarMitzvahs you attend and chassunahs you are invited to.

If you are close enough to attend, then yes. Otherwise, don't go and don't give a gift. Or stock up on half price sefarim and books when there's a sale.

Quote:

Is there anything here that we can change to make life more affordable? Do you faint when you open the VISA bill?

of course

Motek

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 6:08 pm

Funny? Hmmm. An unexpected response indeed!

I wasn't trying to be funny. I am genuinely perplexed by many of your comments in that post and wonder why you get such inappropriate messages. Seems your circles are not representative of frum life in general. It must be hard to live among people who believe that way.

GR wrote:

Mitzvahmom, there is not doubt, that if you yourself need every penny that you earn and plus, then you need to "give tzedaka" to yourself.

Doesn't a poor person have to give tzedaka too?

chen wrote:

GR wrote:

a segulah for Parnassah is giving Tzedaka without boundaries

The halochoh is one is not permitted to give away more than 1/5 of one's possessions, davko so that one should not become poor and have to receive tzedokoh. That's not exactly "tzedokoh without boundaries".

Would we tell someone who is very sick, ch'v, that he can only spend up to a fifth of his money to cure himself? Definitely not. A person can spend as much as they want for a refuah. So too, with tzedaka. A person can give all his money away because nowadays, tzedaka is an atonement for our sins.

Quote:

Though this might amount to a very considerable sum, he need not fear violating the injunction that14 “one should not extravagantly distribute more than one fifth [of one’s property to charity],” for this kind of giving cannot be termed “extravagant distribution,” since he does it to redeem himself from fasting and affliction.

This is no less necessary than healing his body or his other needs, in which one does not restrict one’s spending to a fifth of his means.

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....=7936

GR - what's the interesting story?

amother

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 6:47 pm

chen wrote:

We afford it by doing our own thing and not caring what "everyone" does, wears, and so on.

I admire that.

Quote:

Dh & I have clothing and shoes older than most members of this forum, and our wardrobes are gradually shrinking as things fall apart and aren't replaced.... chicken, not beef, and that only for shabbos and yomtov. quasi-vegetarian the rest of the week. shop only on sale whenever possible. use very few convenience foods. we eat out maybe 3-4 times a year, if that, and then not in fancy places. going to the pizza shop is a big treat.

oh, yes, we both work full-time.

I don't know what you both do and I don't know how many children you have. Maybe that would explain what I don't understand.

Boruch Hashem, we lacked for nothing when growing up, had what we wanted, and our wants weren't very great since we were raised right. I
don't understand why it is that I grew up with only my father working to support the family and he was able to pay full tuition (whatever was asked), full camp, and give A LOT of tzedaka without penny pinching.

Well, let me qualify that.

My parents are not big spenders. They live simply. They rented for many years until they bought a house. They don't own a car. They too, do their own thing and don't care what people think of them. They also have a small family.

BUT

Although I don't know my father's salary, my impression is that he could have supported a somewhat larger family on the same salary quite nicely.

So what happened? Why is it that you and your husband chen, are working fulltime and living so frugally? Is it becomes times are different? More expensive now? Did both your parents have to work in order to support you and your siblings?

Anonymous because of personal information. And if any of the questions to you chen were too personal, sorry.

roza

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 7:25 pm

To the last amother.

There is a book "The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke"

That will explain:

Quote:

I don't understand why it is that I grew up with only my father working to support the family and he was able to pay full tuition (whatever was asked), full camp, and give A LOT of tzedaka without penny pinching.