Are there more tzaros today?

Motek

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:15 pm

I've often heard and participated in discussions about whether there are more tzaros of people dying young today, whether from sickness or other calamities (fires, car accidents etc.) than years ago, or not.

So first, we have to decide what period of time we're comparing our times to! To life in Europe? To life in America?

1900-1950?
1950-1980?
the past 20 years?

Of course life expectancy has gone up and today we EXPECT all live births to result in live adults when long ago (though not SO long ago), before vaccinations, many babies and children died! It was common for a woman to have many live births, let's say 13, but only have 5 survive childhood!

So I'm not talking about comparing our days to back then.

I'm more interested in knowing whether things have changed since say, the 1950's. What do you think and more importantly - do you have proof to back your view?

I just don't know except that I've heard, more than once, that doctors who treat cancer in N.Y. say that there are disproportionate numbers of frum people who are sick.

southernbubby

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:20 pm

A DNA research oncologist came to speak for Bais Chabad of West Bloomfield, MI several years ago and said that Jews carry the DNA for several types of cancer. I don't know why it would make a difference if they were frum or not. Plenty of non-frum Jews are sick as well, unfortunately. The only thing that would make sense is that:
a)Frum Jews may be more genetically "inbred" than other Jews because they marry in a narrower circle and
b) Environmental factors that cause cancer would affect numerous people in a given area (chas v'sholem). and
c)Cancer is often a disease of aging. Jews are people who go to doctors and may live to an older age but be more at risk of cancer as they age.
Being that the holocaust decimated a large part of the Jewish people, those who were left were going to marry into a narrow gene pool so genetic illness could really be a factor. That said, people have been asking since the Jewish people began, "why the Jews?" Of course, as I was told after being hit by that car, "examine your deeds." The frum world needs to do that.

Motek

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 8:34 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I don't know why it would make a difference if they were frum or not.

I don't know. Maybe no difference.

I just looked at my original post and realize that it could be unclear. I was referring to the constant tzaros we hear and read about in the frum world about frum people. The emails requesting Tehillim. The huge Tehillim lists. The constant ads and tzedaka requests for families that are suffering from tragedies.

Quote:

a)Frum Jews may be more genetically "inbred" than other Jews because they marry in a narrower circle

Unless people are marrying relatives, and most do not, I have not heard that simply marrying within the pool of frum people is an inbreeding problem.

Quote:

c)Cancer is often a disease of aging.

The tzaros I'm talking about are the ones about young people: toddlers, children, teens, young adults, young marrieds, middle-aged marrieds who are diagnosed with cancer and other illnesses, in addition to "accidents."

mumsy23

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 8:41 pm

Southern Bubby wrote:

Quote:

a)Frum Jews may be more genetically "inbred" than other Jews because they marry in a narrower circle

Motek wrote:

Quote:

Unless people are marrying relatives, and most do not, I have not heard that simply marrying within the pool of frum people is an inbreeding problem.

Of course it is. Many diseases that are prodominent in jewish circles is a result of Jews ONLY marrying Jews. All those genetic diseases we get tested for through dor yesharim are a result of Jews marrying in narrower circles.

rosehill

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 8:49 pm

I honestly haven't a clue as to the ultimate answer, but here are some points to ponder:

1. Communications today are so advanced from where they have been, so we hear more than we used to. For example, the young Kallah in Crown Heights who became ill would've just been a local issue, but now, people all over the world are hearing about her via the internet, and davening for her.

2. In the past "stigma" may have attached to certain ailments that are commonplace today, so again we are talking about it more.

3. Medicine is so advanced, that we are identifying, diagnosing, and treating more than ever. In the past, an early stage cancer may have gone undetected until a person passed away from something completely different, whereas today, they will be treated aggressively, even if asymptomatic. (There's a whole body of knowledge about whether or not this is a good thing in all cases, but that's for another thread).

4. It is possible that there is more incidence of disease nowadays, after all.

Motek

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 9:39 pm

mumsy23 wrote:

And now with Dor Yesharim there are far fewer Jews dying of genetic diseases than ever!

southernbubby - in my experience of the world, I have not found that it is all common for people to marry cousins (1st, 2nd, 3rd). I didn't say it never happens, just that it's not common.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 9:47 pm

Motek wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

It depends on the circles, it can go from almost unheard of, to almost systematic.

mumsy23

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 10:09 pm

Motek wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

And now with Dor Yesharim there are far fewer Jews dying of genetic diseases than ever!
.

With genetic diseases that Dor Yesharim tests for yes, but only because of the testing. My point was that there are illnesses that result from marrying in narrow circles. The Dor Yesharim ones was just an example to give you proof that there are such cases. From this we can infer that their may be other such diseases (that Dor Yesharim doesn't test for, because we either don't know about it, haven't been able to isolate a gene etc...)

sarahd

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 4:51 am

My theory? I think that after the holocaust Hashem gave us a "break", so-to-speak, for a generation and we heard less of these sorts of tragedies (also saw an improvement in our general material condition.) But today that grace period is over and we're back to the norm - health problems, parnassa problems and the like.

queen

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 8:38 am

As Rosehill mentioned, our communication is so great these days, causing us to hear about all the tzaros happening, in the varied communities across the globe. Between emails, newspapers, mail, phone etc. Bad news is spoken about out of shock and thereby spread.

Another factor is the extreme growth of our numbers recently, as this generation has had a lot of children after the holocaust.

Mitzvahmom

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 9:29 am

mumsy23 wrote:

Actually there is a huge study on Ashkenazi Jews that alot of Genetic Medicine programs are focusing on. If I had more family in the area, I would totally do the testing. They map out the family, and tell you what genetic traits your family is likely to be a carrier of. Most of my family is in Chicago, and sadly the study does not seem to work with the "other genetic studies" they are just individual studies. Such is life.

southernbubby

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 9:55 am

Queen has a point about the numbers of frum people rising. If the incidence of childhood death (may no Jew know from it) is 5% (just a ballpark guess) due to any cause, be it accident or illness, a larger number of people would unfortunately produce a greater number of tragedies. To know if there were more or fewer deaths in the frum community than in the general population or in the non-frum population, someone would have to do a study. Many of the kids cared for by Camp Simcha and Chai lifeline are from non-frum homes. The non-frum community unfortunately also has tragedy, may no Jew experience heartbreak, but we frum Jews are not always aware of that.

Ruchel

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 12:44 pm

queen wrote:

Another factor is the extreme growth of our numbers recently, as this generation has had a lot of children after the holocaust.

Do frum people have more children than before the holocaust? because non frum ones definitely have less...

JRKmommy

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 4:46 pm

Things that may make a difference:

1. Jews do have a higher incidence of not only testable diseases like Tay-Sachs, but also:

Pre-menopausal breast cancer
Ovarian cancer
Inflammatory bowel disease (eg. Crohn's Disease)

2. Diet has changed. Kosher food used to mean cooking from scratch, and just buying kosher meat. Now, kosher processed foods are readily available - but too many of them are filled with MSG and partially hydrogenated oils (to make them pareve and give them a longer shelf life). These foods can literally kill you!

3. Jews tend to live in urban areas - so pollution is an issue, and again there may be more convenience vs. fresh food.

4. In some cases, duration of breastfeeding decreased dramatically, and the effects are only being shown now.

To show the effects of 2, 3 and 4 - my dh's grandmother passed away recently. She was 104, and others of that generation also lived very long lives. His older aunts are alive and well. However, two of his younger aunts died of breast cancer, and a third is sick. It could be coincidence, but the family left Iraq for Israel in 1949, and their lifestyle changed completely. For example, in Iraq they had large families and breastfed babies for 2 years, in Israel they had smaller families and formula was common. Both factors have an impact on rates of pre-menopausal breast cancer.

Raisin

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 7:25 pm

If you are an ashkenazi marrying another ashkenzi you are quite closely related. in a recent study they found that half of all ashkenazim are descended from just 4 (or 5?) women who lived 1000 to 1500 years ago. (through the maternal line, if I remember right)

I do not know if they included in this study people who know they are descended from gerim, or have sefardi as well as ashkenazi ancestry. I think they looked at sefardim as well, and some of them were descended from these women, but only a few percent.

mali

Wed, Jun 28 2006, 7:46 pm

last year, a close friend of mine had a baby with very serious heart problems. she was hospitalized for a long period of time, and unfortunately passed away at the age of seven months.

this friend told me that most children in the hospital who had birth defects were either frum or arab. the reason being, that those are the only two groups here that don't have abortions when they spot a serious defect in the ultrasound.

that's another reason for the larger proportion of sick children, lo oleinu, in the frum community.

mimsy7420

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:15 am

Mitzvahmom wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

The don't know exactly what every gene will cause. Maybe in 20 years they will know.

suomynona

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:25 am

mali wrote:

Also, a lot children who die young would never have survived to begin with in previous times.

Motek

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 11:06 am

suomynona wrote:

Also, a lot children who die young would never have survived to begin with in previous times.

You mean preemies? That's true.

mumsy23 wrote:

My point was that there are illnesses that result from marrying in narrow circles...From this we can infer that their may be other such diseases (that Dor Yesharim doesn't test for, because we either don't know about it, haven't been able to isolate a gene etc...)

To clarify my original question, I am asking about whether there is a higher incidence of young people dying of cancer, heart attacks, and strokes (to name the Big 3), as well as car accidents, fires etc. Not about rare illnesses or genetic illnesses. Though that can be a separate question - are there more people dying of relatively rare illnesses?