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shalhevet

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:00 pm

Why is it now forbidden to speak about (OK I admit heatedly) such tenets of Judaism as keeping Shabbos and dying al kiddush Hashem?

Do I get a logical explanation of why that thread disappeared before my eyes as I was trying to post about Rabbi Akiva and Reb Elchanan Wasserman hy"d giving up their lives willingly al kiddush Hashem?

Or are we only allowed to talk about custom sheitels and what we're going to make for dinner here?

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:40 pm

Yeah, why did it disappear?

While waiting to know, I'm posting my answers to the last posts I saw.....

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But is life worth living without Torah and mitzvos?

Is life worth living having betrayed our Tatte in Himmel?

My first reaction is “no”, but only those who took that option know.

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This has nothing to do with Holocaust survivors or anything else.

It has, sorry.

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though for the record, no rav ever would have paskened l'chatchila to convert to Christianity

I agree.

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But in a time that BH appears safe, if people say, "As long as there is life there is hope," and not, "I hope I would give my life if CHV put to the test," then what will happen if CHV they are put to the test?

It’s more realistic than being sure you would give your life, and it’s less disturbing than being sure you would be able to let your children be killed. Personally I know I would have more chances to make the good choice if I was honest from the start and told myself "ok, now I have to make the biggest effort of my life" than if I was all pretentious and took it for granted.

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you're bringing up a case of a very small minority. most of the marranos' descendents lost their connection to judaism completely.

Many do come back – I’m currently helping a Portuguese girl with her conversion. But anyway, a very small minority is better than nothing.

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according to halacha they should have allowed themselves to be killed rather than accept Xianity even outwardly

This is not so clear. Some say yes, some say no, some say it’s ok if it’s outwardly, some say it’s only ok for women...

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The people who stayed were mainly wealthy and found it hard to give up their money.

The wealthiest and the poorest stayed, as well as those with small children, old people...

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:50 pm

Ruchel wrote:

My first reaction is “no”, but only those who took that option know.

They're not the only ones.

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it’s less disturbing than being sure you would be able to let your children be killed.

Disturbing? Uncomfortable, yes. But disturbing?

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This is not so clear. Some say yes, some say no, some say it’s ok if it’s outwardly, some say it’s only ok for women...

Who says it's okay, who says it's okay outwardly, and who says it's okay for women?

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:03 pm

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They're not the only ones.

Who can know (apart from in theory) without living it?

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Disturbing? Uncomfortable, yes. But disturbing?

Sorry, that's my opinion.

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Who says it's okay, who says it's okay outwardly, and who says it's okay for women?

I don't take notes every time I read something, but I remember very clearly reading on a Jewish website that outwardly was possible to save your life, and that some said only women could pretend being Xtians. I might have been on a site about Sephardic Jewry.

shalhevet

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:09 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Who says it's okay, who says it's okay outwardly, and who says it's okay for women?

I can't believe it was permissable to become a Xian and not be killed. This is one of the 3 mitzvos that a Jew has to die for. Maybe the site was trying to judge those who did it favourably.

Anyway

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a Jewish website

is not called a source (especially if it's like the last source you posted) Anyone can set up a website and write anything they like. Actually, come to think of it, people could also quote anything they see here as being read on a Jewish website.

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:11 pm

Exactly.

A source is a posek.

And yes, mummyof6, there are many limudei zechus on what people nebuch did, but that does not make it a psak l'chatchila.

mali

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:21 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

you're bringing up a case of a very small minority. most of the marranos' descendents lost their connection to judaism completely.

Many do come back – I’m currently helping a Portuguese girl with her conversion. But anyway, a very small minority is better than nothing.

stop helping her. we don't need converts. fact is, their jewishness was lost. you can't deny that.

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according to halacha they should have allowed themselves to be killed rather than accept Xianity even outwardly

This is not so clear. Some say yes, some say no, some say it’s ok if it’s outwardly, some say it’s only ok for women...

what's not so clear? during the time of gezeiros shmad, a jew must die al kiddush hashem! that's a clear-cut halacha! the people who stayed behind were only fooling themselves.

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The people who stayed were mainly wealthy and found it hard to give up their money.

The wealthiest and the poorest stayed, as well as those with small children, old people...

get your jewish history facts straight. the people who stayed behind were just not strong enough to withstand the nisayon.

amother

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:25 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Do I get a logical explanation of why that thread disappeared before my eyes

Did you think the posts that discussed the original poster's level of observance and choice of a reform rabbi was a great discussion? Confused

mali

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:26 pm

amother wrote:

Did you think the posts that discussed the original poster's level of observance and choice of a reform rabbi was a great discussion? Confused

good point, amother.

shalhevet

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:27 pm

amother wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

Do I get a logical explanation of why that thread disappeared before my eyes

Did you think the posts that discussed the original poster's level of observance and choice of a reform rabbi was a great discussion? Confused

No, but
1. That should have gone ages ago. She said herself on a different thread that she was reform.
2. We had long since left that behind and were speaking about important issues in Judaism.
You can edit without wiping the whole thing off.

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:29 pm

I think sometimes the moderators take a thread off completely in order to edit it, and then they may put it back up in the edited form.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:40 pm

Quote:

I can't believe it was permissable to become a Xian and not be killed. This is one of the 3 mitzvos that a Jew has to die for. Maybe the site was trying to judge those who did it favourably.

Not sure about becoming, but I do remember they said it was ok to pretend you were Xtian (to save your life), especially women.

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Anyone can set up a website and write anything they like.

I agree, but it was serious.

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stop helping her.

Wow, I can’t believe what I see here. As a human being with feelings, I decently can’t and don’t want to stop helping a girl who would be one of us without the Xtians, who keeps shabbes and studies Hebrew alone in her Portuguese village. Get a heart and stop wondering why some non jews think we are mean, haughty and callous.

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we don't need converts.

With that attitude, it’s not surprising that we are a minority everywhere and always bothered. We need all the sincere converts possible. Without that elitist attitude we would be as numerous as the Xtians – and don’t tell me it is so because all Jews are la creme de la creme, many Jews are assimilated or frei.
I'm no convert, but I think they will feel so welcomed when they will read that... Rolling Eyes

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fact is, their jewishness was lost. you can't deny that.

Yes, but some of them have gained it back, which is better than nothing. "you can't deny that".

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the people who stayed behind were only fooling themselves.

Just like those who stayed behind and refused to leave Nazi occupied countries? Go ahead, spit on them! Rolling Eyes

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get your jewish history facts straight.

You’re not talking to the right person here, I happen to know Jewish story. I happen to have a family that remembers the Spanish expulsion too.

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the people who stayed behind were just not strong enough to withstand the nisayon.

Oh, because it’s sooo easy. Oh sorry, I forgot that for you killing your children is easy. Then yes, I suppose leaving everything behind including your old parents or taking your small children to starve on the roads is a pic nic.

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:47 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Not sure about becoming, but I do remember they said it was ok to pretend you were Xtian (to save your life), especially women.

Before making such a serious statement, you should probably find a reliable source.

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I agree, but it was serious.

Lots of serious people are not valid poskim.

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Is she working with an Orthodox rav or beis din? Because I'm sure you're not qualified to help someone with conversion.

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Get a heart and stop wondering why some non jews think we are mean, haughty and callous.

Because we don't try to convert them?

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With that attitude, it’s not surprising that we are a minority everywhere and always bothered.

It's also not surprising because Hashem told us we'd be the minority amongst nations.

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We need all the sincere converts possible. Without that elitist attitude we would be as numerous as the Xtians – and don’t tell me it is so because all Jews are la creme de la creme, many Jews are assimilated or frei.

There's no reason for us to go out and get converts. If you want to bring Jews back to their Yiddishkeit, fine. But we don't need converts, we don't need to be as numerous as the Christians. Not because we're better, but because WE DON'T DO THAT.

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I'm no convert, but I think they will feel so welcomed when they will read that... Rolling Eyes

No one has a problem with people who have converted. But we don't go out to convert people who haven't come to us. Have any of the giyoros on this site tried to convert their non-Jewish family? I doubt it.

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Yes, but some of them have gained it back, which is better than nothing. "you can't deny that".

What have they "gained back"? Halachically, they're no different than any other non-Jew!

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Just like those who stayed behind and refused to leave Nazi occupied countries? Go ahead, spit on them! Rolling Eyes

There is a difference between someone who stays in a country and converts to save himself, and someone who stays in a country and dies for being Jewish.

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You’re not talking to the right person here, I happen to know Jewish story. I happen to have a family that remembers the Spanish expulsion too.

I think you're misspeaking, because the Expulsion was 500 years ago, so no one remembers it.

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No one said it's easy, but Judaism is not about ease and comfort.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:49 pm

I should say I'm also helping 2 French girls (one with a Jewish father) and 1 American lady (from Jewish descent) for their conversion, and also a reform girl that wants to be orthodox, should I dump them all? Are they too impure? Will I burn in Gehinom?? Rolling Eyes

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:51 pm

Do you have an advisor (rabbi, rebbetzin, beis din) that you are consulting with in helping these people?

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:56 pm

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Is she working with an Orthodox rav or beis din? Because I'm sure you're not qualified to help someone with conversion.

She is a minor, and she lives in a Portuguese village = no Jew around. She will go to Lisbon when she'll be 18.
She suffers from being a non Jew, so why can't I teach her what I know and help her doing what she can "in advance"?

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Because we don't try to convert them?

I don't try to convert anyone. But I'm not turning down people who contact me for help either.

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Again, I don't.

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Again, I don't. But I doubt a giores would say "go away it's not for you" if suddenly her mother or sister was interested in Judaism.

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What have they "gained back"? Halachically, they're no different than any other non-Jew!

Halachically, I agree.
Not getting into feelings stuff here, I see I'm in the wrong company.

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There is a difference between someone who stays in a country and converts to save himself, and someone who stays in a country and dies for being Jewish.

I agree, but both could have been "strong" and leave.

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I think you're misspeaking, because the Expulsion was 500 years ago, so no one remembers it.

That would be sad. Apparently I'm the only one with a family with oral tradition?? shock

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No one said it's easy, but Judaism is not about ease and comfort.

It's not about being miserable either.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:59 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Do you have an advisor (rabbi, rebbetzin, beis din) that you are consulting with in helping these people?

The 3 converting people were at the Consistoire a lot of time before meeting me, they have their rav and the beis din there. The reform girl is now going to an orthodox synagogue, I'm only there to "motivate" her when she feels the need or answer her questions.

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 7:00 pm

1. You probably should refer these people to qualified rabbonim or rebbetzins who have experience.

2. No one said to say, "Go away, it's not for you."

3. You cannot remember something that you did not personally experience, no matter what the oral tradition in your family says.

4.

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It's not about being miserable either.

But when Yiddishkeit and our happiness clash, we are required to follow Yiddishkeit, not our feelings.

mali

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 7:02 pm

Judaism does not encourage non-Jews to convert to Judaism. The obligation to discourage prospective converts is from the Talmud (Yevamos 47a). This practice is, in fact, rooted in Tanach. When Naomi's two daughters-in-law wanted to join her, as converts, in her return trip to Israel, she attempted to dissuade them three times! (Ruth 1:8-12). Instead, she encouraged them to keep the Seven Noachide Laws.

Ruchel, what makes you think you're better than Chazal? (talk about oral law).

Crayon210

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 7:04 pm

mali wrote:

(talk about oral law).

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