Judging the financial capabilities of others

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:07 pm

This is based on a post in another thread about deciding that someone is on government assistance and is buying luxuries. It used to bother me when people would pressure me to give more than I could afford to people who actually lived better than I did. Now I simply refuse and no longer care if the person approves or not of my decision. My question is, do we have the right to judge what is in another person's wallet? I am always being asked if I am in litigation over the accident by someone who wants money. I evade the question. Do we judge too much about other's ability to pay for things? WHAT ABOUT TUITION COMMITTEES? Are there those of you who have had to justify every expense you have when you apply for tuition assistance? Is that right or not? Opinions please!

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 7:25 pm

A woman who tried to get a scholarship to a Soloman Schecter school had to show her total income and itemize every expense. The tuition board told her to cut back on her groceries to pay more in tuition. The child went to public school. Frum schools were more lenient until they found that people with no income were driving late model cars; a gift from the parents. They finally came to the conclusion that such generous grandparents could be sent the tuition bill. Personally, I have no right to decide what other peoples needs are, my only decision is whether or not I want to donate to meet that need. We sometimes get appeals from yeshivas in wealthy neighborhoods in other cities. This would be last on my list for tzedukahs.

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 7:56 pm

The trouble is you really never know. Someone once didn't give us much needed help because they decided that something we spent money on was a luxury. It was actually a necessity in our circumstances.

Since then I am very careful to dan lekaf z'chus when I see people with something beyond their means, at least on a one off. There was a poster here who said she was given money for a new sheitel and then people thought it wasn't true that she didn't have money. Maybe clothes are a present from a relative. You often don't know how someone acquired something and/or why they need it.

On the other hand I think it is justified to even ask such questions if public money is to be used to help someone.

chen

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 8:29 am

It's a tough issue, to be sure. Appearing before a tuition committee is an exercise in humiliation. OTOH, yeshivos have limited funds, and they have to have some way of deciding who gets how much. There will always be those people who try to get a 'deal" even though they can well afford to pay more. Since public monies are at issue, I don't see a solution to inquiring into the family's financial circumstances.

The trouble is that people who are better-off often have ways of hiding significant assets. (When you see people who own enormous houses in upscale neighborhoods, three cars, and go to a hotel in EY for Pesach every year, yet they claim a household income of $30k a year, something doesn't add up.)

nechamashifra

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 9:26 am

faigie wrote:

wow tough one
if I were in the position to give a scholarship to a school for some deserving student.........I would be sorely vexed if I saw that kids parents vacationing in aruba

Why? So not only do these poor people have to be charity cases but they're not allowed to do anything without people staring them down "how dare they live like the rest of us, they re supposed to be poor". Just because you help someone else, does that you make you eligible to judge whether they need that custom sheitel or that vacation? I would hate to have to rely on other people's money because many times, if they helped you..they kind of bought you. You have to live like they would expect someone worthy of their help would be living.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 9:50 am

I am glad that you liked the topiq Queen because at first it didn't get any replies! My plumber showed up bright and early this am when I was in the middle of Shemona Esrai. He is frum and waited until I finished. I didn't call him so when he came into the house and into the kitchen, I thought maybe my husband called. What was the problem? He was doing work for a frum family in the area and the city had shut off their water for nonpayment. He was raising money to get it turned back on. He would probably not be paid either. This led to a whole discussion of rabbis who expect pro bono (free) work from doctors, lawyers, mechanics, caterers. plumbers, etc. Usually this is not discussed up front and the worker is somehow surprised to find out that he was expected to work for free out of kovod for the rabbi. In a place where everyone is a rabbi, it gets a little dicey. I think that these types of professionals need to specify in advance if they are willing to do pro bono work so that there are not wrong expectations on either side.
Also, the bakery owner once told me a story of a poor man who had not paid the bakery for awhile but was feeding his family in grand style. Tired if not being paid, the bakery owner offerred him day old stock. The poor man got angry. Feed old food to his family? What an outrage! Any opinions?

Nomad

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 9:56 am

nechamashifra - noone is saying that poorer people dont deserve things or that they should be looked down in any way c"v!

but the people could have used the aruba money to pay for tuition instead, thats where the conflict come in...

that is how many scholarships work, they need to see need.. aruba vacations dont really show need...

since there is lots of people and not a lot of scholarship money, they have to judge who needs it most so they can figure out who to give it to and who not to give it to

chen

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 1:22 pm

Nomad wrote:

since there is lots of people and not a lot of scholarship money, they have to judge who needs it most so they can figure out who to give it to and who not to give it to

exactly. there are degrees of luxury, too. vacation in aruba is not quite the same as taking the children to visit the grandparents out-of-town. (not to metnion that some ppl can't afford even that, but one could argue that visiting mishpocho is a necessity. )

Still, the committeee doesn't have the right to decide that you should hand shoes down from one child to the next, or to treat families like charity cases.

as to the "pro bono" work, we see it all the time as dh has many clinets that are not-for-profit orgs. I keep telling him to tell them that when they stiff him, they are guilty of theft not only from us but from our Yeshivoh, since w/o $ we can't afford to pay tuition.

However--plenty of clients who are rolling in dough don't pay either. They have too many expenses and a cash-flow problem b/c they just bought a boat, a second home, a third wife, a fourth car...

amother

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 1:37 pm

We just went through the humiliating accounting of every penny for our tuition committee. Down to the medication copayments. We are able to pay a lot of money to the school, but not full tuition and they don't get it.

some people think that just because you make X amount of money, you are home free and can pay 30K+ in tuition yearly. Other people understand that just because you make X amount of money, doesn't mean that you are not paying off debts and student loans and paying for a nice expensive and high quality babysitter so that you can go out and work and make that money. And yet, there are items that are considered a luxury for some and a necessity for us : owning a home, saving for retirement, having two cars etc

I sometimes think that tuition would be lower if everyone paid their fair share

gryp

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 1:50 pm

Quote:

I agree with nechamashifra. thats the whole part about not judging. maybe they werent given money to go! maybe they were given tickets for a present, maybe they had frequent flier mileage. you definitely cant pay for tuition with your miles!

so not only do poor people have to be poor but they can never have a nice car or go on a trip either.
it could be the car dealer gave them a special deal for whatever reason only for this specific fancy car.

Quote:

I sometimes think that tuition would be lower if everyone paid their fair share

I think it would only go higher, like taxes.
the more money they can get, the more theyll ask for. Confused

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 2:22 pm

A few years ago there was an article in Natural Jewish Parenting about a doctor's wife that was homeschooling in protest to high tuitions. The tuition committee told her to sell her home and live in an apartment or sell her husband's car and let him drive a junker to the doctor's parking lot. She said goodbye to day school for the two girls and kept them and her money at home.

nechamashifra

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 3:53 pm

faigie wrote:

oh and nechama. that IS correct,, if I am giving money for tuition,, those people better NEED it.. not need it IF they want to take that trip to aruba, they cant pay their bills.
yeeesh .................prioties!

Don't give money away unless you are giving it unconditionally. You are right..people need to know their priorities. How do you know the trip to Aruba wasn't like SouthernBubby said a last attempt at saving their marriage. Does helping someone financially place you all of a sudden as a judge over what their priorities should be?

yoyosma

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 5:17 pm

My brothers friend was refused tuition assistance because he drove a second hand 5 year old Infiniti.
Granted, an Infiniti is a luxury car, but it was not a newer model and he got it second hand. He was forced to sell it and buy a lesser car because they would not give him a tuition break.
Is that fair? I dont know.

I am thinking of getting a new stroller, and someone suggested buying a second hand Bugaboo on ebay. You can get one for about $400 with accessories, and most strollers with that amount of options are that amount anyway. (if you dont want to buy a Graco that will break within a year, I am a big believer in buying quality items ONCE that will last me for a while).
I told that person that even if I find a bugaboo for $300 (which is the amount SHE found hers for-second hand) I will not buy it because I plan to ask for tuition assistance next year, and I think its a Chutzpah to drive one of those around, even if I got a deal. A brand new Bugaboo can retail up to $900.

On the tuition assistance forms, they ask for tax returns, rent slips, proof if you are on any city assistance, they ask if you own a summer home, where you spend your summers, car payment slips, etc. People DO hide things well, so I understand the scrutiny. You have to bring all that stuff in and present it to a board.

I have never experienced it yet, but will soon!

As for the pro bono work, my DH gets that ALL the time!! From "its the Rebbe's Mosaid", to "its Tzeddakah because I am on Shlichus", to "Well your name on the product that goes out to so many Jewish children is payment enough", etc. I dont even want to go into what some Frum people expect and how they treat their fellow Frum professionals, demanding breaks, services, revisions etc when they actually pay 1/4 of what the professional world would pay.