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Judging the financial capabilities of others
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 30 2006, 5:48 pm
There is a concept of Maris Ayin in Judaism, so if you need to take the trip to Aruba, be prepared to explain (or say that it was for personal reasons, but be assured it was warranted). If you are asking for assistance, they need to judge who is more in need, and they have a right to ask you to prove it.
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mom3boys




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 30 2006, 6:09 pm
[quote="nechamashifra"

Don't give money away unless you are giving it unconditionally.[/quote]

Thumbs Up
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 30 2006, 6:51 pm
I agree that it can be humiliating to have to prove that you can't afford to pay. However, my own BIL & SIL, used to make me so mad (before I even had kids). My BIL is from a rich family. Nice guy, but lazy - doesn't do a stitch of work, ever. SIL is a teacher. She teaches at a Beis Yaakov, which doesn't pay much. They used to apply for, and get subsidies for their kids school. On paper, they had barely any income. In reality... they went on about 5 vacations a year, they have NEVER in 25 years of marriage been home for Pesach - always either to one of the hotels, or to EY. Always have new cars, (from whichever "business" BIL claims to have at that time). His family must give them a huge allowance. Anyway, one day years ago, someone complained about them to the school. How they go on so many vacations, and that was the end of the subsidies. I think a lot of people feel like it is like "bargaining" at the shuk. You know how you feel great when you bargained someone down and got a great "deal".

It's too bad those kinds of people are taking the money away from people who really need it :-(
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 02 2006, 9:36 am
As for the pro bono work, it would seem as though the kind professional who takes upon himself to do pro bono work for rabbi's families would at least be appreciated in that the rabbi's family would not make the same demands as a paying customer. For example, say that an auto mechanic does not charge for labor when working on the car of a kollel family or the car of a cheder rebbe. Let's say though, that because he can only stay in business if someone pays, that he works on the cars of paying customers first. Does the kollel rabbi have the right to demand that his car be serviced first as though he were a paying customer? From what the 2 posters who have been expected to do pro bono work say, the "free" customers feel as though they are as valuable as customers as the paying ones are and deserve the same treatment. Any opinions?
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elisecohen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 02 2006, 10:39 am
I know I have certainly read stories of tzaddikim who would see those NOT able to pay first so that they would not feel like second class clients, but I don't think that this is required of the service provider halachically.

On our financial form for tuition, we go into detail and have added a letter explaining that we buy all our clothes (including dd's bas mitzvah dress) at thrift shops or gemach or make them ourselves, how we do not have a cleaning lady even though most people here do, how we do not take family vacations, etc. Our 2 cars are 9 years old--a minivan (we have 5 kids afterall k"h) and a tiny 4 seater for dh to commute (public transportation is not readily available to his office). The only one of our kids to go away to camp is the one who goes to Camp Simcha Special, which is free. We don't register our kids for after school activities even though they feel very left out because of this. We don't go out in the evenings or get babysitters.

Still, because of dd's good salary (on paper) we don't qualify for a lot of grants and services through social agencies. Once taxes are taken out, and insurance, and tuition, though, we are left with barely enough to pay our mortgage (thank G-d we have a very low interest rate) and buy food and medicines.
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yoyosma




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:28 pm
Quote:
I know I have certainly read stories of tzaddikim who would see those NOT able to pay first so that they would not feel like second class clients, but I don't think that this is required of the service provider halachically.


Well, with regard to what I posted, let me just say that these people who ask DH to do certain work for them will pay non Jewish agencies TOP DOLLAR, but since my DH is one of "them" they expect a break. It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it or not, they can, and he has seen that they have and gets upset at how he is treated. Unfortunately for them, he doesnt take on projects for them anymore. No matter how Frum and brotherly we are, we also need to pay our rent and eat food.
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faigie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:42 pm
interestingly enoug guys. there is an unwritten rule in many modern ortho yeshivas......... the total payment of yeshivas tuition can not exceed 20% of your income.
and I happen to know from my best friend, that it is applied.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Jul 03 2006, 9:58 am
When I hear someone judging anothers spending habits, I always ask "Do you know how many kids they have?" Interestingly, most people don't know that info, (which is easy to find out) But they know exactly at what standard that person is supposed to live.

If you give a person a dollar....(a dollar does not go too far today Confused )
1. will buy chocolate
2. will put it in savings
3. will buy a neccesity
4. will spend it on clothing
5. will buy gas
ETC.....

Don't judge others.
Why should I tell you that I am on a paid vacation by my parents because I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown?
Why should I tell you that my son is in an expensive camp because of his behavior difficulties
Why should I tell you that my dad gave me $1000. to buy clothes for my teenager because he wanted them dressed better than I could afford.
Why should I tell you why I go 'shopping' every week...(I actually go for therapy)
The list could go on, and on....
You DON'T know what is happening in other peoples life.
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 03 2006, 10:02 am
I know... I always get those comments, when my kids get new shoes. What am I supposed to say I got approved for a grant to get clothing for my kids (Thank G-d for the grant)?? It's none of their buisness
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willow




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 03 2006, 11:35 am
amother wrote:
When I hear someone judging anothers spending habits, I always ask "Do you know how many kids they have?" Interestingly, most people don't know that info, (which is easy to find out) But they know exactly at what standard that person is supposed to live.

If you give a person a dollar....(a dollar does not go too far today Confused )
1. will buy chocolate
2. will put it in savings
3. will buy a neccesity
4. will spend it on clothing
5. will buy gas
ETC.....

Don't judge others.
Why should I tell you that I am on a paid vacation by my parents because I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown?
Why should I tell you that my son is in an expensive camp because of his behavior difficulties
Why should I tell you that my dad gave me $1000. to buy clothes for my teenager because he wanted them dressed better than I could afford.
Why should I tell you why I go 'shopping' every week...(I actually go for therapy)
The list could go on, and on....
You DON'T know what is happening in other peoples life.


Very well said!
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 03 2006, 11:47 am
It’s takeh a very hard question and I’m glad we’re discussing it! Kudos, Southern Bubby!

It’s up to each person to decide if they want to attend Chinese Auctions, etc. I have no qualms with ladies who want to do these things with their money. Maybe they don’t wear fancy sheitals or budget for it otherwise. That’s fine.

But my main main peeve is tuition committees. Can they really tell you how to budget and how to live? I’ve been told to go back to work. I”ve been told other personal things, too....like I pay too much rent (like that’s up to me, lol).

I know our schools’ tuition doesn’t cover most of their expenses, and I truly am sorry for that. But does that mean I can only eat bread and water? That I should live in a basement?

Come on. There has to be a better way.

I’ll find out next week as I register my daughter for her final year of high school…
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 03 2006, 11:52 am
I know, I have been told multiple times that if I move to x side of town that the rent is lower.

But x side of town there is no eruv! I am sorry being stuck inside with three kids all of shabbos is just not something I am ready to deal with, esp being alone. I need to beable to push the stroller to school.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 04 2006, 4:47 am
Nobody has to explain their purchasing or living habits to anybody, of course. Of course, too, nobody should expect an automatic right to tuition reduction either.

Can someone explain why a tuition committee should approve a scholarship for someone who sends their children to expensive summer camps, spends thousands of dollars on their wardrobes and vacations in Aruba, without offering any explanation of these expenses? The onus is on the person requesting the reduction to demonstrate that he is deserving of it, isn't it?

(Disclaimer: I worked in school administration for 10 years; part of my responsibilities included assisting the tuition committee.)
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2006, 2:28 pm
yoyosma wrote:


Well, with regard to what I posted, let me just say that these people who ask DH to do certain work for them will pay non Jewish agencies TOP DOLLAR, but since my DH is one of "them" they expect a break. It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it or not, they can, and he has seen that they have and gets upset at how he is treated. No matter how Frum and brotherly we are, we also need to pay our rent and eat food.[/quote]

ditto.
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2006, 2:29 pm
faigie wrote:
interestingly enoug guys. there is an unwritten rule in many modern ortho yeshivas......... the total payment of yeshivas tuition can not exceed 20% of your income.
and I happen to know from my best friend, that it is applied.


gross or net?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2006, 6:37 pm
I am posting this anonymously, in case it sounds ruder than I mean it to be.
It's true, one shouldn't judge as one never really knows the financial capabilities of another.
A vacation may have been a gift, a car may be used, designer clothes may have been sewn from scratch.
However, if you are asking for financial assistance, I think it behooves you to behave as modestly as possible. You can say no to that vacation, wait for a simpler car, etc.
I don't mean to wear rags and be embarrassed, but beware of appearing to be at a higher standard than your benefactors.
An example. We B"H have not had to ask for tuition assistance yet, but it's possible that that could change at any time. When we went to the annual Yeshiva dinner, my m-i-l came to babysit, and brought her mink coat for me to wear. I thanked her, but refused the offer. I didn't want people to see me in a fur coat, knowing I may have to ask those same people to help pay my bills.
Food for thought.
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2006, 10:20 am
amother wrote:
However, if you are asking for financial assistance, I think it behooves you to behave as modestly as possible.



Umm, yeah...a lady came to to our door schnorring, wearing a fur jacket! Rolling Eyes maybe it was fake, maybe it was from a gmach, maybe it was the only thing she inherited from her late grandmother, but really, have a little sechel...
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Basya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2006, 10:46 am
I believe in being dan l'kaf zchus people in general but this was hard:

A woman once came to my door collecting. when I asked her what she was collecting for she told me "Hachnosas Kallah". I happened to have gotten a new set of linen as a present from my MIL and it wasnt my taste I was planning to return it, but I offerred it to the woman for the kallah.
The woman said to me "oh no, you don't understand the kallah has linen already, we are collecting for pearls for her."

What do you think?
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2006, 10:48 am
Basya wrote:
I believe in being dan l'kaf zchus people in general but this was hard:

A woman once came to my door collecting. when I asked her what she was collecting for she told me "Hachnosas Kallah". I happened to have gotten a new set of linen as a present from my MIL and it wasnt my taste I was planning to return it, but I offerred it to the woman for the kallah.
The woman said to me "oh no, you don't understand the kallah has linen already, we are collecting for pearls for her."

What do you think?



I think thats terrible. shock
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chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2006, 11:42 am
Basya wrote:
we are collecting for pearls for her.

What do you think?


You have the right to decide where to give your tzedokoh money. If they want to give a kalloh pearls, ok, but that doesn't mean you have to give to them. I'd rather give dishes and linens to three kallohs than pearls to one.
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