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In this week's Jewish Press...what do you think?
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PinkandYellow




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:17 am
Quote:
The same as far as working. Are you really doing it because it's the best thing for your family? (I would include a woman who's going to be frustrated being at home all the time, as well as financial necessity) Or because of selfish motives?


If a woman is going to be frustrated at home all the time, and you want to judge her and say that's a valid reason to go out to work, what would you consider "selfish motives"?
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baby's mom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:23 am
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
happy2beme wrote:
Quote:
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
I work full time but exclusively breastfed until 10 mths, pump twice at work- and I'm giving my kid the message that even though I work, he is my priority bec even at work I will use my whole lunch break to pump so he can have benefits of mommy even when mommy isn't there.


Quote:
Queen wrote:
your pumping at work is bec. YOU want it to be good for baby. When you're not with baby, irrelevent of giving pumped milk or not- YOU ARE NOT THERE.

We give our babies our milk bec. WE know it's better for them. They need the breast just as much as they need the milk. Getting it from the bottle doesn't tell them Mommy cares about them.
I am not telling you you're horrible for working full time, but rather shedding some light on your comment

ACtually them getting it from the bottle does tell them mommy cares for them! maybe not when they're infants but when they're older (at 3 yrs old u can explain it if they see u doing it for a younger sibling & say u also did it for them or also they'll know when they're teenagers & young moms) how u worked hard for them to be happy & they do understand that u 'sacrificed' for them to be healthy & good.

plus, an infant tastes the diff between formula & breast milk. there is a level of comfort for them to taste breast milk even if mom's not there.


Thumbs Up Exactly.
It's not what you do, but how you do it.
Quality vs quantity.
How can the kids be happy if the parents aren't happy?
It takes a happy and content mom to raise a happy and content child.


re: Quality vs. Quantity. When it comes to children/babies need your TIME. The more time you spend with them the happier they are. It isn't easy to be a good mother. It requires a great deal of work. We must take care of ourselves, do things for ourselves to be a HAPPY MOTHER, so that we can take care of our children, for them, to be HAPPY children and not dump them somewhere. Do things AROUND the child's schedule. Being gone all day is not OK.


Learn to be happy with your child. Learn what makes you happy so that you can take care of yourself and be there for them.

The letter writer of this article expressed it passionately possibly because of her suffering. We should learn from her and not take our children for granted.
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Sparkle




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:42 am
I work every day from 9 until 3. I'm lucky that my job is based at home (I go out to meet clients - but I work in an office at home). Which means that I am on aware of what is going on with my 9 month old and my babysitter. My 3 year old is in preschool and comes home at 1 to nap until 3.

I think what it comes down to is: What is your priority? Now matter what, I am with my kids from 3 until bedtime. We go to the park, bake, eat dinner together, read books. I make sure to go the gym early in the morning instead of taking up precious time in the afternoon. Shabbos and Sunday - we spend the whole time together as a family. If you feel that your role as a mother is important and primary I believe anyone can make it work. I work 30 hours a week but still am involved a whole lot with my kids. They know I am their mother and they are the most important people in my life (along with dh Smile) and I don't think that they feel abandoned or mistreated. ANYONE can be a great mother - as long as they have their priorited straight. Basically - get good, reliable help, and spend EVERY spare second being mommy.
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amother






Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 3:08 am
I have a few points to make in this post and I will try to come across a lot calmer than I feel. Note that spellcheck was not working properly so there are some spelling mistakes. My apologies.

First of all, for all you mommies that have the luxury of staying at home and are coming on here to bash those of us that need to work from your high horses I have one thing to say:

SHAME ON YOU! You have not a clue what it takes to be a working mother - not a clue. Do you know the pain of going back to work when you baby of 6 weeks is staying behind? Do you know the dread of waking up every weekday morning month in, month out and thinking "I can't do this anymore, I just can't" - but then we do, because we need to? Do you people have a blessed clue?!? WE DON'T WORK FOR OUR AMUSEMENT! Mothers work for one of two reasons - financial or mental, which brings me to my next point.

One of you made a point about prioritizing - that if a mother is working for financial reasons she should prioritize and then won't have to work. Let me tell you something, naive little girl, some of us need to work because our husbands cannot - because they are in school so that their wives can be at home with their future children; because they are not well enough to work; because they don't have the skills to work in a job that pays enough to support a family. Don't you go around telling others to prioritize. Like Nichole (I believe) said - should I move into the streets? Maybe I should just skip the food part of life....what part of rent, unitilities, food, medicine should be prioritized?!? Some of us don't buy clothing (hand me downs only), things for the house (bare walls or garage sales), or go out for entertainment - WE ARE PRIORITIZED TO THE MAX!

To Happymom - Crayon was picking on you because you are coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all. Guess what - I use a non-jewish babysitter. No, I am not happy about it. However, jewish babysitters are non-existant in my neck of the woods (the 1 person in my community that had a jewish babysitter years ago a)her children were neglected - her words not mine - but she chose a Jewish babysitter above all. b)she had the person driven in from another community 45 minutes away - and twice a week she had to pack her little kids into the care at 6:30 so that she could pick her up so that she could be at work on time. c)she paid an exorbanint amount of money). I did speak to a rav who told me that as long as someone is able to come in at any moment and she knows it my kitchen is fine. I am lucky to have someone who has been with family and/or friends for the past 12 years. I am also lucky that I have the luxury of working right near my home so I drop in as many times as I can throughout the day.

One more point:

The letter writer wrote that she will judge. I have one thing to say:
"...val tadin es chavercha ad shtagiya lmkomo..." Pirkei Avos (2:3)

In all, us working mothers have it hard enough being away from our children, coming home after a long day at work & having to cook supper, spend as much time as we can with our children, putting them to bed and then tending to our marriage. It is physically draining and again, we don't do it because we are looking for entertainment. Have compassion. Be fair. Stop beating us about it, I promise you, we beat ourselves enough.
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shalhevet




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 3:09 am
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
Quote:
The same as far as working. Are you really doing it because it's the best thing for your family? (I would include a woman who's going to be frustrated being at home all the time, as well as financial necessity) Or because of selfish motives?


If a woman is going to be frustrated at home all the time, and you want to judge her and say that's a valid reason to go out to work, what would you consider "selfish motives"?


A woman who's frustrated at home is not going to be a good mother, so going out to work is as much for her kids as for her.

Selfish motives - to pursue a career for the career's sake e.g. prestige, 'freedom' etc
- or salary which is for buying luxuries (I know this is extremely subjective)
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mali




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 4:06 am
amother wrote:
I have a few points to make in this post and I will try to come across a lot calmer than I feel. Note that spellcheck was not working properly so there are some spelling mistakes. My apologies.

First of all, for all you mommies that have the luxury of staying at home and are coming on here to bash those of us that need to work from your high horses I have one thing to say:

SHAME ON YOU! You have not a clue what it takes to be a working mother - not a clue. Do you know the pain of going back to work when you baby of 6 weeks is staying behind? Do you know the dread of waking up every weekday morning month in, month out and thinking "I can't do this anymore, I just can't" - but then we do, because we need to? Do you people have a blessed clue?!? WE DON'T WORK FOR OUR AMUSEMENT! Mothers work for one of two reasons - financial or mental, which brings me to my next point.

One of you made a point about prioritizing - that if a mother is working for financial reasons she should prioritize and then won't have to work. Let me tell you something, naive little girl, some of us need to work because our husbands cannot - because they are in school so that their wives can be at home with their future children; because they are not well enough to work; because they don't have the skills to work in a job that pays enough to support a family. Don't you go around telling others to prioritize. Like Nichole (I believe) said - should I move into the streets? Maybe I should just skip the food part of life....what part of rent, unitilities, food, medicine should be prioritized?!? Some of us don't buy clothing (hand me downs only), things for the house (bare walls or garage sales), or go out for entertainment - WE ARE PRIORITIZED TO THE MAX!

To Happymom - Crayon was picking on you because you are coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all. Guess what - I use a non-jewish babysitter. No, I am not happy about it. However, jewish babysitters are non-existant in my neck of the woods (the 1 person in my community that had a jewish babysitter years ago a)her children were neglected - her words not mine - but she chose a Jewish babysitter above all. b)she had the person driven in from another community 45 minutes away - and twice a week she had to pack her little kids into the care at 6:30 so that she could pick her up so that she could be at work on time. c)she paid an exorbanint amount of money). I did speak to a rav who told me that as long as someone is able to come in at any moment and she knows it my kitchen is fine. I am lucky to have someone who has been with family and/or friends for the past 12 years. I am also lucky that I have the luxury of working right near my home so I drop in as many times as I can throughout the day.

One more point:

The letter writer wrote that she will judge. I have one thing to say:
"...val tadin es chavercha ad shtagiya lmkomo..." Pirkei Avos (2:3)

In all, us working mothers have it hard enough being away from our children, coming home after a long day at work & having to cook supper, spend as much time as we can with our children, putting them to bed and then tending to our marriage. It is physically draining and again, we don't do it because we are looking for entertainment. Have compassion. Be fair. Stop beating us about it, I promise you, we beat ourselves enough.
I'm not anymore a work-away-from-home-mom, but your touching post brought back painful memories of that time (not too long ago). you're 100% right. Sad
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 8:01 am
Quote:
Learn to be happy with your child. Learn what makes you happy so that you can take care of yourself and be there for them.


baby'smom said it perfectly. mothers need to learn how to be happy and stay at home. it takes learning, time, and patience. take on new hobbies, get out after the kids are sleeping, find out how you can be happy and stay at home at the same time.

I highly doubt most people are content to be SAHM, but they learn how to be happy and an SAHM.

for those that need to work or need to use non-Jewish babysitters, you gotta do what you gotta do, as long as you are 100% sure that this is the right decision for you.
it is rare to see a really terrific non-Jewish babysitter, but I do know one. she had been with a family I know for so long that she knew practically everything. I always heard her say things like:
"dont forget to wash negel vaaser"
"make a bracha"
"you have to finish your lunch before you get your gute-zachen"
it was funny to me back then, but now I realize that she was great, and she really cared about those children.

leaving your kids with a goya while you go daven is probably the most mixed up thing I can think of.

Happymom is right. so many mothers are so focused on whether or not the working or sahm'ing is right for them, they forget to counter their kids completely into the decision too.

a child is always happiest with the parent around to take care of them. always.

working mothers, do not insult yourselves or fool yourselves that a babysitter takes equally good care of your children as you do.
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happymom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 8:53 am
Quote:
To Happymom - Crayon was picking on you because you are coming across as an obnoxious know-it-all.


Im sorry u feel my opinion is obnoxious. I just dont understand why what I am saying bothers u , because I do not feel like a "know it all" and I said many times that if a mother needs to work they just need to make sure thier babyis happy. if a mother cant agree with that, and think im obnoxious becasue of it, then oh well what can I say?
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amother






Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 9:30 am
[quote="amother"]
Quote:
I have a few points to make in this post and

Quote:
First of all, for all you mommies that have the luxury of staying at home and are coming on here to bash those of us that need to work from your high horses I have one thing to say:

Quote:
Let me tell you something, naive little girl, some of us need to work because our husbands cannot - because they are in school so that their wives can be at home with their future children; because they are not well enough to work; because they don't have the skills to work in a job that pays enough to support a family. Don't you go around telling others to prioritize. Like Nichole (I believe) said - should I move into the streets? Maybe I should just skip the food part of life....what part of rent, unitilities, food, medicine should be prioritized?!? Some of us don't buy clothing (hand me downs only), things for the house (bare walls or garage sales), or go out for entertainment - WE ARE PRIORITIZED TO THE MAX!

nobody here was talking about extreme situations. if you think so, bring an example. its terrible what you must be going through.
I myself am a SAHM.
I have never bought my kids new clothes.
the phone bill has not been paid for the last few months.
sometimes we have to wait on the food shopping till we get the next pay check. so we somehow manage with what we have, somehow.
we never really know how we will pay for rent, but somehow hashem helps.
we never eat out. the one major eat out/entertaining that is so once on a while is PIZZA. and that is with no toppings and no drinks. and about 1 slice for each kid.
we take the kids outdoors and to all free entertainment.
we obviously do not own a home and I don't know when we ever will.
we have never gone on a vacation since we have had kids.
we hardly ever ever even eat steak.
we have nothing saved for retirement.
I can not go out and get me new clothes.
I can not go out and get me new shoes.
we are pretty poor.
but I could never leave my kids. I had them and I made the choice to stay with them. is it hard? oh yessiree. and sometimes at the end of the day I have lost my kishkas! but im there for them and they know it. and they copy everything I do. and im so fearful of them getting their influence from someone else. at the end of 120, I want to know that I raised the most exeptional jewish children that I could have. the rest, materially, hashem will compensate.
it ain't no picnic here either.
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amother






Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 11:57 am
to the last amother, maybe you and your children would be BETTER off if you DID get yourself a part time job?
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Crayon210




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 12:21 pm
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
I can't imagine that the women on this site don't check out the baby-sitters and make sure everything is okay. I think people are more responsible than you're giving them credit for. I also think you're needlessly scaring a lot of women and making them feel bad.

I think you should stop picking on happymom. do you have some personal issue going on here???
she brought up very valid points. and if you think that the woman on this site are so fragile that what she says can so damage them, than they should step out of the kitchen.
getting too hot for you here?
crayon, did you stay home with your kids?


Don't worry about my offspring, thanks.

I am aware that it's a supersensitive topic for a lot of women, and I think it's best to proceed accordingly, that's all.
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Crayon210




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 12:22 pm
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
This rant is appalling for many reasons:


4. JUDGE? We don't judge people, not in my religion.

shock
come again?????
and what religion would that be???????????


I was always taught that we should judge situations, but never people. A very important distinction.

Don't look so shocked.


Last edited by Crayon210 on Sun, Jul 02 2006, 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crayon210




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 12:23 pm
amother wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
momof3 wrote:
I think she's right about non-Jewish babysitters taking care of kids. I hate seeing these ladies at the park, or shopping, or taking them to & from school or even for pizza. I don't even believe that all these women work. (I know of 1 specifically who doesn't). But if they have to work, there are plenty of competent Jewish women in our neighborhood who babysit in their home.


I don't understand why the community gets to have an opinion about who takes care of other people's children.

kol yisroel araivim zelaze.


Don't twist the words of Chazal to suit your needs. Rolling Eyes

I don't think Chazal meant that we should ask people who's taking care of their kids and why the person isn't Jewish/l'havdil frum/chassidish/heimish/whatever.
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shoy18




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 1:08 pm
I want to start off, I saw this thread on wed and I didnt want to read it until shabbos bec I enjoy reading the jewish press on shabbos so I waited unti I read is on shabbos to see what this thread was about.

It seems to me that she is a woman who longed for a baby and after a long hard journey she bh had one and its the most dearest thing in the world to her..that sort of clouds her judgement when she sees all these things she speak of.

Second the Rav of my parents shul (a very well known prominent rav) got up in shul about a year ago and said exactly what she said about woman supporting the family and that its the Husbands job.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 1:53 pm
amother wrote:
to the last amother, maybe you and your children would be BETTER off if you DID get yourself a part time job?


I agree.
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mali




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:04 pm
amother wrote:
to the last amother, maybe you and your children would be BETTER off if you DID get yourself a part time job?
I thought the same as I read your post. The best proof will be, that all your daughters will work full time, to make sure their families don't go through the same difficulties they did.
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baby's mom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 2:44 pm
Quote:
One of you made a point about prioritizing - that if a mother is working for financial reasons she should prioritize and then won't have to work. Let me tell you something, naive little girl, some of us need to work because our husbands cannot - because they are in school so that their wives can be at home with their future children; because they are not well enough to work; because they don't have the skills to work in a job that pays enough to support a family. Don't you go around telling others to prioritize. Like Nichole (I believe) said - should I move into the streets? Maybe I should just skip the food part of life....what part of rent, unitilities, food, medicine should be prioritized?!? Some of us don't buy clothing (hand me downs only), things for the house (bare walls or garage sales), or go out for entertainment - WE ARE PRIORITIZED TO THE MAX!



Was that me?
Prioritizing does not necessarily mean not working so that you can spend every second of every day with your child. It means PUTTING YOUR CHILDREN FIRST ON YOUR LIST. It means raising them and being there for them. No where did I write that women shouldn't work. Stop twisting posts to mean other things. Go back and read what I wrote and then I can be open to reading your comments.

Again, we are not talking about extreme situations.

I don't know where you got
Quote:
that if a mother is working for financial reasons she should prioritize and then won't have to work.


Amother did you read the whole thread?
BTW, no one was mocking or nicknaming anyone, maybe we should keep it that way.
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roza




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 10:14 pm
after reading this whole thread, I think: eilu ve'eilu...
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amother






Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 10:38 pm
amother wrote:
to the last amother, maybe you and your children would be BETTER off if you DID get yourself a part time job?

I was not throwing a pity party for myself.
I was trying to make a point.
Yes, We do not have much in the way of materialism. And I could go back to work. But I have made this choice because it is the more important one. And the one I will never be able to have again. I weigh going back to work versus raising my kids...... and I chose to do the right thing in my eyes.
We are pretty poor, but at least I am not thousands of dollars in debt like many people who are living beyond their means, going back to work and trying to acquire more and more.
I am not talking about the mothers who must go back to work for the survival of their families .
I am talking about those that work to acquire a more comfortable lifestyle, materially, at the expense of their precious children.
I do not own a home, but I don’t owe a bank thousands for living in a place that is not mine. I do not owe the bank for other major loans one takes out to acquire more and more. We are simple. I am not going into olam haba with materialism. I am going into olam haba with the knowledge and satisfaction of knowing I raised the most precious gifts that I ever got. My children.
Don’t feel bad for me.
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amother






Post  Sun, Jul 02 2006, 10:47 pm
amother wrote:
nobody here was talking about extreme situations. if you think so, bring an example. its terrible what you must be going through.
I myself am a SAHM.
I have never bought my kids new clothes.
the phone bill has not been paid for the last few months.
sometimes we have to wait on the food shopping till we get the next pay check. so we somehow manage with what we have, somehow.
we never really know how we will pay for rent, but somehow hashem helps.
we never eat out. the one major eat out/entertaining that is so once on a while is PIZZA. and that is with no toppings and no drinks. and about 1 slice for each kid.
we take the kids outdoors and to all free entertainment.
we obviously do not own a home and I don't know when we ever will.
we have never gone on a vacation since we have had kids.
we hardly ever ever even eat steak.
we have nothing saved for retirement.
I can not go out and get me new clothes.
I can not go out and get me new shoes.
we are pretty poor.
but I could never leave my kids. I had them and I made the choice to stay with them. is it hard? oh yessiree. and sometimes at the end of the day I have lost my kishkas! but im there for them and they know it. and they copy everything I do. and im so fearful of them getting their influence from someone else. at the end of 120, I want to know that I raised the most exeptional jewish children that I could have. the rest, materially, hashem will compensate.
it ain't no picnic here either.


And there are women like me who, in a situation like that one, would live every day in fear. We are not living large here either, but I want my kids to have more security than this. It'snot saving for retirment, it's saving to make sure that if CV'SH something happens, there's some money to help take care of it. I still live with so many money worries, but I'd be going out of my mind if I wasn't working, adn trying to fill some of the gaps. I don't think having a job means that I"m not trying my hardest to raise the most exceptional jewish children that I can.
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