Help from our older daughters in large families

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:00 am

For those of you with older daughters, and that might include 5 and 6 year-olds too, how do you feel about your daughters helping out?

How do you find the balance between the help you need and their other obligations and time to themselves?

Do you think you can ruin their chinuch by too many or too few demands on them?

Do you think responsibility increases self-esteem?

And if you were one of those older daughters in a large family, what do you think about it now?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:29 am

mummyof6 wrote:

I was not partof what most of you would call a large family, there were four children in all, but I was 15 years older than my youngest sibling, so I definitely helped out a looooot.
I think that it is a wonderful thing for older siblings (not just the gals mind you:>) to help out. it teaches a lot of discipline as well as responsibility and I beleive that those are two very important things for children to learn.
I dont think that the chinuch of a child can be ruined by asking them to help when the help is needed. they are part of a family and with that comes responsibilities. obviously we have to be able to see when a child needs some time to themselves, but I think that helping out is over all a very good and important thing for children to do.

I remember changing diapers, giving my younger siblings baths, feeding them cleaning up after them and all of that lovely stuff:>. I am not sure if at that time I was thrilled but looking back, I cam definitely say that it helped to prepare me for life!!!!!1

southernbubby

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:42 am

I have seen and read of situations where the older daughters were practically raising the family. They do learn a lot from helping out but there may be those who are already exhausted from raising a family by the time it comes to start their own and they might not be that enthusiastic. Obviously, the older daughter cannot be made into a slave and still expect her come out feeling fine about it.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 8:52 am

I was the oldest of a large family and can say that I helped out a lot (esp comparing to what other friends of mine did) All the older siblings had their evening job and of course we helped out in other ways.
But, my parents always gave us privliges (sp?) too.
I can see now, with my siblings who are at home, my teenage sis is really good and helps a lot. Every so often, my parents will treat her to something extra special to show their appreciation. (A piece of inexpensive but nice jewellary etc)

So yes, I think it's very important for older children (even boys) to pitch in regularly at home and if they do so willingly, for the parents to show their appreciation occasionally (obviously verbally appreciate all the time - but not to overdo it - children need to know that they aren't doing their parents a favor by helping. It's just part and parcel of being a family - that everyone pitches in)

happymom

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 11:45 am

helpiong out is a good thing. but a parent needs to remember to make thier chilren feel that what they have to do is importnat too. My mil told me that for pesach celeaning she would ask her children to pick something on the list and then when they were done they can go shopping or do thier thing... that way they wont feel resentful, and like they can nevee do anything besides help..!

TzenaRena

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 11:51 am

my older daughter has been a great help all along, since she was even two and a half, believe it or not. I have a picture of her "helping" me scrub things for Pesach at that age. Helping keeping an eye on her younger siblings, when she was six she helped me with holding, carrying the baby, at eight or nine, she could help with diapering, supervising the younger ones playing outside and inside. She is now great with kids altogether, so it really helped mold the personality.

She was helping me bake at that age, my younger ones love making salad for me. At around twelve or thirteen, I can trust them in the kitchen, cooking, using the oven (and remembering to shut it off!) Cleaning, at a certain age they are capable of it all. Older than ten can make laundry. These are just arbitrary ages. When a child is capable they are capable. finished.

My mother taught me to iron at age ten, my sister who was younger,(8) learned at the same time. I'm a little nervous with my kids using an iron at that age, but they are capable.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 12:09 pm

this is a sore spot - I am the oldest of 13. I was assistant mommy. I feel like I was never able to be a kid. when I started having kids I felt like my oldest was number 14 and yes, I was tired of raising kids! my parents always respected and admired me and gave me privledges - in a way it made things worse because I had my job cut out for me , expectations were high and it alienated me from my younger siblings, they were jealous of my bond with my parents and resented me in a way. I feel like I was never a carefree child who was loved for me - I always had to perform. for all you parents doing his to your kids, dont think my parents were bad - they were loving, amazing parents and still are, but there is no excuse to give your child your job - even if they seemingly love it and dont complain, and you give them extra perks to make up for the responsibilties. let the kids be kids, and bond properly with her siblings. when my daughter asks if she can change a diaper, I tell her that when she has kids she will have plenty of diapers to change! I dont understand parents that have more kids than they can handle and expect the older kids to do their job. no one wins - the oldest is used and the younger ones lack the parental attention. sorry for rambling.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 1:38 pm

To amother assistant mommy, what if things were the other way around? what if you got married not knowing how to fry an omelette, get a supper ready on time, not knowing how to whip a house into shape, not knowing how to arbitrate your own children's fights, not knowing how to set a table properly.....learning on the job, and not loving that? Having your new husband wonder why you can't keep the house clean before there are even any children?

The Lubavitcher Rebbe in all his adresses to the women and girls, referred to the woman as Akeres HaBayis, and the girls as preparing for that, helping to raise their siblings!

There is a verse: "Tov lagever ki yiso ol b'neurav" It's GOOD for a person to have responsibility from childhood on. It's healthy and normal!

The amount of help I get from my children takes up a relatively small percentage of their time. There is PLENTY of time for them to be kids. And I have no regrets about giving my children skills to last them a lifetime, including the ability to have initiative, and be helpful and caring for others rather than self-centered.

micki

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 2:01 pm

this is something I struggle with too- I helpeed a ton as a girl, and my only regret is that I did not do more. or I did it with a n attitude instead of being HAPPY to do that. but tell that to a teenager.
my struggle is that my oldest girl is so helpful and so reliable. if I ask her she always says yes. my second gorl most often says no. so I have to struggle to NOT ask the older one more than the younger one- they are only 18 months apart.
I have ot remember to aske all the kids, even the 3 yr old- and take some of the responsibbility off the 7 yr old.
I have a feeling if I let the 6 yr old get away with doing what I ask- like go get me a diaper- she says no.
if I ask the older one she says yes. but I think as they older the 7 yr old will resent the younger. is this true?
they really are capable I just have to remeber to ask all the kids.

chen

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 2:13 pm

ALL my children are expected to do their share. So much so that I am sort of dreading when they start going to EY for a year, b/c it will mean that I will have to do the jobs that they have been doing all this time, horrible thought.

I have to fight the inclination to unfairly burden dd, which is not so easy b/c she's a pretty neat sort who goes around closing closet doors and occasionally doing her brother's chores unasked. So when she lets certain chores slide I don't give her a hard time about it, and I may do certain jobs for her (especially around exams) that the boys are expected to do for themselves. Her job is exactly the same as anyone else's: not to be my assistant housekeeper, but to carry her own weight as a member of the household, and to succeed in school so that she can get a good job when the time comes.

OK, I confess to taking advantage when the nieces and nephews come to visit: she changes their diapers because she is the experienced babysitter. (Not that many babysitting jobs are available for boys.) however, I've resolved to teach my sons this job as the very next opportunity. why should they wait till they are parents to learn this essential task?

I know a few people (not frum) who told me they did not want children because they already brought up their 4 or 5 or 13 younger siblings. I wouldn't want that to happen to my eldest child. However, there is a world of difference between imposing an excessive burden on one child, and assigning an equitable degree of responsibility to all children. Children must not be slaves to their parents, but neither should the parents be slaves to the children. Every member of the household has to pull his own weight as age-appropriate.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 2:34 pm

I too am from a large family, and you touched a sore point in me too. I do have some fond memories of helping clean, like cleaning for Pesach with my mother and we would play make-believe and such. But, so much of our relationship with my mother was her criticizing that we had not done a good enough job whatever that job was at that time, one was responsibility for the kitchen nightly, another the dining room, etc. We would have to get our younger siblings ready in the morning, and for me, I found it hard enough getting myself ready. Yes, there are some things that I knew how to do when I got married and started having children, but to this day I have such a negative attitude towards housework. Plus, I thought I was experienced with kids, but once you have your own, it is NOTHING like helping out with the younger siblings. I had no idea how draining it would be to nurse and/or wake up in the middle of the night to care for other children.

I do believe that children should have responsiblities, boys and girls alike, but it needs to be done in a positive light. The mother should teach them how to do it properly with positive reinforcement, not with negative. There should be no nagging, but rather everybody should work as a team. Covey has a very good chapter in 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE about roup meetings and distributing jobs which I hope someday to incorporate into my home. You may want to read it. If a certain job doesn't' suit a child, change it...don't make him miserable. Have each child choose what job is most suited for his personal likes and dislikes.

R' Orlowick writes that one should not be paid to do his job, but rather as a person who lives in the home, he should help out. Appreciate your children and express your appreciation, and work together, like sometimes doing their job for them and/or leaving notes for them or complementing them. Focus on the positive.

IMO, this is a great thread!!

Crayon210

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

But, so much of our relationship with my mother was her criticizing that we had not done a good enough job whatever that job was at that time, one was responsibility for the kitchen nightly, another the dining room, etc.

Flylady talks about this a lot. She stresses the importance of acceping the job as "not perfect", and to thank your children for their help so this doesn't happen:

Quote:

but to this day I have such a negative attitude towards housework.

(She says that a lot of people have bad attitudes about housework for this reason!)

Quote:

I do believe that children should have responsiblities, boys and girls alike, but it needs to be done in a positive light. The mother should teach them how to do it properly with positive reinforcement, not with negative. There should be no nagging, but rather everybody should work as a team. Covey has a very good chapter in 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE about roup meetings and distributing jobs which I hope someday to incorporate into my home. You may want to read it. If a certain job doesn't' suit a child, change it...don't make him miserable. Have each child choose what job is most suited for his personal likes and dislikes.

These are really important points.

It is important for boys and girls, and all ages, to have responsibilities. Obviously a four-year-old is different than a twelve-year-old, but no one should be exempt from being part of the family in terms of helping out.

Positive attitudes are also really important. Empowering the child (appropriately) is also very important.

And appropriate and enjoyable jobs are great because everything will get done and the children won't resent helping out. Obviously some jobs are not fun no matter who gets them, but you can either try to make them more enjoyable, or make them part of a rotation so no one gets that job too often.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 3:43 pm

I helped a lot as a teenager but not with younger sibs. Only had 1.But my mother is just not the best houskeeper. I remember doing laundry at age 11.It didn't have any terible affects on me.As for my kids. I expect all of them to help according to their ability.I also try to give jobs that they don't hate. eg: one who cooks but hates cleaning up, at least put the stuff in the sink, then another one doesn't mind doing dishes. 2 kids so far went to E"Y & they did great.DD had to teach some of her friends how to do laundry. One girl was very resentful that her mom never taught her this stuff b/c she said she felt stupid.

amother

Mon, Jul 03 2006, 3:59 pm

I was the older girl of what you would probably consider a medium sized family. (between 5 and 10 children).
I helped out less than my friends, most of whom were the oldest also. Sure, we had certain jobs, and around pesach time, we probably had equal responsibilities to everyone else, but I never had to put my siblings to sleep, help cook for shabbos etc. In a family I knew well, the mother hardly did anything for shabbos. The kids did almost all the cooking and cleaning.
My mother feels strongly that it's not such a terrible thing to learn on the job when you get married. So you spend the first few months learning how to cook and clean. Big deal.
Helping my mother NEVER came before school work and activities. School was the most important thing. We never took off from school to help. If I had a school activity or function one night, it was understood that we would skip our job if we had one that night (ex cleaning the kitchen).
Obviously my mother was able to do this because she never worked out of the house when I was growing up, and most of my siblings are at least 2 years apart.
In any case I didn't really know how to do laundry and clean bathrooms when I got married, but big deal. It's not that hard to learn.
On the other hand, some of my siblings used to complain that they had to do more housework than their friends. So I don't know if that was because we had different types of friends, or the fact that they didn't have to do so much made them spoiled.