Frum Pronunciation

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 5:05 pm

sarahd wrote:

Like they say "fivdy-one" or "sigzdy-one" instead of "fifty-one" and "sixty-one

oy, yes

I don't know if I can convey this in writing, but how about pronouncing the name Goldberger with the "berger" part kinda shmushed together.

ditto for blueberry, strawberry - something like "blubary, "strawbary"

"LIbary" for library

TzenaRena

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 8:27 pm

ha! We grew up putting our laundry in the hemper, which is what my European grandmother must have called it. It was probably after I was married that I caught on that the pronounciation was supposed to be as spelled, hamper. LOL

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:14 pm

This brings me to a question that I have had for a REALLY long time and I have never gotten an asnwer!!!

Why do people in boro park speak with a thick european accent when they were born and raised in boro park?! Whenever I go shopping there, I am amazed by these young men speaking as if they are 80 year old holocaust survivors! "Vat doo yooo vant?" WHY?!

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:19 pm

Because they grew up speaking Yiddish as a first language in a very insular and isolated environment, with parents and grandparents and teachers who WERE born in Europe.

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:33 pm

Ok, I guess I knew that. Let me rephrase my question - Why is this encouraged? Why don't parents encourage their children to speak proper english? People are very talented, if taught from a young age, they can learn two or more language simultaneously and speak both very well (with their appropriate respective pronunciations).

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:35 pm

It's not a value for people in those communities to speak proper English. It's usually their second, maybe third or fourth language, and Yiddish is much more important (and often much more useful!) in Boro Park. What value does English have for people? And who's going to teach it? Someone else who doesn't speak English as a first language?

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:37 pm

Well, a lot of chassidish people are out in the work force. Many of them run businesses etc... I just feel like they sound unintelligent speaking like that. Especially when people find out that they are not foreigners.

For some reason, it urks me.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:42 pm

Has their language affected their ability to work? There are tons of people in New York who don't speak proper English, and lots of them get jobs and are able to pay their bills.

In a sense, these people ARE foreigners. They are technically US citizens, but they don't speak English as a first language.

Sometimes it irks people because it embarrasses them that their fellow Jews sound like greenhorns. Confused

TzenaRena

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:52 pm

My parents sound American, although they do speak Yiddish and that identifies us as "Amerikaner" for better or for worse.

In our Chassidishe community people of that generation are usually European, and speak with a Russian accent.

chen

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 8:08 am

I think the "frumspeak" that sounds like European immigrants is deliberate. BT's purposely adopt it to fit in, and the communities perpetuate it as a means of group identification that goes along with traditional dress.

In many European communities pre-WWII, speaking the language of the country was strongly DIScouraged, and those who did, did so mainly because they had regular business or administrative dealings with nonJews. A hedge against assimilation, perhaps?

BTW, this "born here but speak like a foreigner" phenomenon is not unique to the chassidish community. Many large immigrant groups, Hispanics in particular, are like this. The difference is that the Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe reached its peak before WWII, and there are not that many genuine immigrants left. We have third-generation Americans still speaking like their immigrant great-grandparents. Other immigrant groups are newer and are still coming over, so there are many genuine immigrants and very few third-generation Americans still talking as if they just got off the boat.

JRKmommy

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 8:27 am

I don't think "close the light" is just frum, although it seems to be more common in some places. My Montreal-born, non-frum parents say it, and didn't notice people saying "turn off the light" until they moved to Toronto.

My dh was born here to Israeli parents, and his English was definitely affected! He remembers being embarassed when he asked for an uh-guh-tah Christie novel at the library. Oddly enough, even my kids picked up the odd Israeli habit (even though they've always lived in Canada and I'm as Canadian as they come), since some of their teachers are Israeli. Dd#1 started making the "ch" sound instead of the regular "h" sound when she was around 3, as in "we're staying at the chotel", while dd#2 has started to say "birsday" instead of "birthday", just like her safta does.