If you really want it ...

gryp

Thu, Feb 17 2005, 7:02 pm

im trying to think of a different way to explain this concept because I see a lot of people are offended by this thread.

lets look at it in a different light:

lets say the couples first priority- #10 on the scale of 1-10 of wanting things- would be to be in kollel. this is all they want and all they think is important in life. so they research and research about different kollels in order to find the best one for them, and since they know financially theyll have a tough life, they try and find which kollel pays the highest stipend. it doesnt matter to them anywhere in the world where the kollel might be because they just want to be in kollel. this would be #10- the most level of wanting, which im sure is not practical to many people, to just get up and move anywhere in the world far from family and friends.

now wouldnt you say this couple wants it more than others who dont end up in kollel for whatever reason, even couples that want it on the level of #9 and 8? or maybe you disagree. im not really involved in this so I cant tell but it would seem to me that they do want it more.

in comparison to Lubavitch moving anywhere in the world on shlichus. couples are ready to move to greece, thailand, alaska, costa rica,... they are very far from families and friends and live a life of hardship and selflessness. wouldnt you say that those couples who are ready to move anywhere in the world want to be on shlichus more- on a scale of 1-10- than couples that lets say just want to stay in North America?

just my thoughts on it.

Motek

Fri, Feb 18 2005, 6:46 am

klotzkashe wrote:

I haven't read the Govt. Assistance thread! I don't read all threads you know!

good reason! Smile

then please realize, and that goes for other posters who are not familiar with most of the forum, that you're missing information, and when you assess a thread and the posts in it, you are not getting the full picture

by the way, I'm sure the following will be of interest to Lubavitchers and non-Lubavitchers alike:

the phrases "ein ha'davar talui ela b'ratzon" and "ein davar ha'omed bifnei ha'razon" are not only quoted numerous times in the Rebbe's letters, but the way I discovered that the source is the Zohar is not because of my bekius in Zohar (ha!) but because I read it in an article of a dvar Torah of Rabbi Pam z'l, rosh yeshiva of Torah Vodaas, which was mailed out by a yeshiva in a publication for mommies.

Motek

Fri, Feb 18 2005, 7:32 am

there are many variations to that story like the story about the child praying for a bike

I think this is a related idea but not exactly what we were talking about because the phrases about ratzon seem more like those thiings you can accomplish by taking action

but to respond to your point which is an interesting one, if - when a person says that, they mean they did not see that they got what they wanted, then of course that's true

but if the person thinks his tefilla was not accepted and the response was negative, he's wrong. Here's a link to an amazing article by a person who suffered greatly and prayed mightily, but who nevertheless concludes:

Quote:

Another lesson I learned is that no matter what, prayers do not go unanswered. Sometimes the answer is positive in the way you asked for it, and sometimes the answer is positive in a way you didn't ask for it. But the answer is always positive.

http://www.aish.com/spirituali.....a.asp

Motek

Fri, Feb 18 2005, 7:59 am

nice, huh? Very Happy

here's something really powerful:

The Frierdiker Rebbe (6th Lubavitcher Rebbe) tells the story of a Chasid of the Alter Rebbe (1st Lub. Rebbe) and then the Mittler Rebbe (2nd Lub. Rebbe), by the name of Reb Yekusiel. He was a merchant who was known as an oved (concentrated more on his davening), but he did not know much when it came to learning, especially Chassidus.

Once, a Chassid of the Mittler Rebbe passed through his town of Lepli and spent a week there, reviewing a maamar (deep chasidic talk) of the M. Rebbe by heart. This Chasid was brilliant and knew his stuff, and was very articulate, but R' Yekusiel, not being particularly bright, couldn't follow him at all. This upset R' Yekusiel to no end. R' Yekusiel was 40 years old at the time, and here was this young whippersnapper repeating maamarim which he, R' Yekusiel couldn't begin to understand!

R' Yekusiel determined to master the maamarim. He asked the bachur to review them with him, but nothing penetrated. He worked at for weeks, fasted and davened, but nothing helped. So finally he went to Lubavitch, to the Rebbe.

On Shabbos, the Rebbe said a maamar, which R' Yekusiel could follow, but there was no way he could grasp the explanation that was said the next day. To his amazement, the young men there understood it! Again, he was very bothered by this, and he fasted and davened.

At a yechidus (private audience) with the Rebbe, R' Yekusiel told the Rebbe about his ability to understand simple maamarim, but not the hard ones. The Rebbe told him, "there is nothing that stands in the way of the will." Ratzon (will) can affect one's intellect and emotions. If you really, really want to achieve something, you can!

Once R' Yekusiel heard from the Rebbe that it all depended on his will, he decided to stay in Lubavitch until he began to understand things. For four months he worked on his concentration, and he found someone to review maamarim with him.

Ultimately, the Mittler Rebbe wrote the sefer Imrei Bina (a deep chasidic work) for Reb Yekusiel Leplier. R' Yekusiel was anything but gifted. He really wasn't bright, yet he worked and worked until he was able to understand the most abstract subjects.

R' Yekusiel was a living example of yogaata u'matzasa (if you work hard, you'll find). Rabbi Shmuel Dov of Borisov praised R' Yekusiel's abilities to the skies, saying that he had never met someone having such a sharp intellect and such an orderly mind.

The Rebbe Rashab (5th Lub. Rebbe, father of the Frierdiker Rebbe) told the Frierdiker Rebbe: "The story my father told me about R' Yekusiel's extraordinary abilities and his attainment of greatness only through tremendous personal effort, how he converted himself from a dummy into a powerful thinker - affected me deeply in my own development."

The Frierdiker Rebbe concludes by saying: I have elaborated at such length here to demonstrate the fact that through genuine effort, one can attain incredible intellectual heights. Everything depends on the person himself.

yehudis

Fri, Feb 18 2005, 10:46 am

How about the story of Chana, mother of Shmuel Hanavi, who really really wanted a child, even though it was physically impossible?

But such people are really the exception. There are very few of them out there, and I don't know if there are any in this generation.

And the story of Rachel and Rabbi Akiva that Motek mentioned -- how many couples are really able not to see each other for 24 years? And how many rabbis would advise it to any couple living in this generation?

So this is a very nice theoretical discussion, but please don't get offended everybody, because for most people it is not practical.

Also, I'm sure the definition of ratzon goes much deeper than just wanting. It's the deepest expression of the person's self. Not that I can explain it, since I don't understand it myself, but Rabbi Tatz talks about it in Living Inspired.

Motek

Sun, Feb 20 2005, 1:44 pm

ok rydys, but I was quoting it as it is used in numerous sources. Nothing about my interpretation here.

yehudis - I am quite surprised by your post! Chana and Rochel were extraordinary people, but that doesn't mean we cannot, in our own way, have a powerful will! There are countless examples that you read and hear about it, about ordinary individuals! Granted, they may not have the lofty intentions of Chana and Rochel, but we're not talking about intentions here, just that the will is very powerful.

there's a secular book which I won't post (you can pm me if you'd like the title) because it's secular, that's on precisely this topic, which is written by best-selling authors

this concept, that you can apply your will to achieve what you want in life, is a popular one in the self-help genre, and it is meant for the ordinary person

Quote:

And how many rabbis would advise it to any couple living in this generation?

if a couple is going to ask, then it's not for them!

(it would be like a Jew in communist Russia asking a shaila if he should be moser nefesh to keep his beard - if he's asking, then it's not for him ... )

and if a person rejects it due to its impracticality, then they're missing the point!

R' Yekusiel in the previous post was a nice Jew, but nothing more! You refer to great people like Chana and Rochel, but what about him?

this is definitely NOT theoretical

it would be a great pity to chalk this up to something not pertinent to ourselves!

Motek

Mon, Feb 21 2005, 10:51 am

here's an example from everyday life:

I read about a couple where the husband often spilled coffee on the kitchen floor in the morning when he made himself toast and coffee. He wouldn't notice he had done it and so he wouldn't clean it up. His wife noticed it though (of course!) and would ask him to be more careful, which he always promised to do, but ---- he would spill it again. At times he'd be flabbergasted when it was pointed out to him. He couldn't understand how or why it kept happening, despite his resolution to be careful.

He and his wife had many discussions about this, some warm and friendly, but not all. And he kept on spilling the coffee.

One day, as he worked to get the coffee stains out of the floor grouting, his wife said: "I really don't know what to do about this. It's so frustrating. We've had a million conversations, and it keeps happening." Once again, he told her how bewildered he was that they still had this problem.

His wife announced, "I know how we're going to solve this. Are we agreed that you should not spill coffee?"

He answered, "Of course!"

"And are we agreed that you are physically able not to spill coffee?"

"Of course," he said again.

So his wife said, "Okay, I want your word that any time I find spilt coffee on the floor, you will owe me $500."

"500? Isn't that extreme?" he asked.

She replied that spilling coffee for 17 years was also extreme ...

Realizing that she was right, he agreed to the deal, and you know what? He analyzed why the coffee spilled and he never spilled coffee again.

So it turned out that until he faced the prospect of paying $500, he didn't REALLY want to stop.

and here's an article for the singles we know:

Click here

Motek

Mon, Feb 21 2005, 11:28 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

Motek, you're way too idealistic.

should be my biggest problem! Wink

Quote:

Sometimes the answer is NO!!!!

and therefore? don't bother wanting?

The Baal Shem Tov and his students were sitting in the beis medrash, davening and learning, when the door opened and a gentile wagon-driver asked for help getting his horse and wagon out of the mud.

Since the wagon was heavy and the mud was thick, the students said - we'd like to help you but we're only students, and not strong enough to push your wagon.

The wagon driver was angry and he shouted in Ukrainian: Mozjhish! Da nyeh chot'shish! which means, "You can! You just don't want to!"

The Baal Shem Tov later explained: a person has to learn a lesson in avodas Hashem from everything he sees or hears, even from what just happened with the gentile wagon-driver.

what is the lesson?

sometimes, when we have to learn more Chumash, Mishnayos, dinim, or keria (for children) and we're too tired, or for adults - who learn Gemara with Tosfos, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Chasidus and deep Chasidus, the Baal Shem Tov taught us that we can learn from what the [gentile] said. We have to know that we can do it, because Hashem gives us the strength to do good things, but if we don't want to, because we listen to the yetzer hara, then it seems like we can't.

***
and it's happening right here in this thread!

it's not practical ... it's for exceptional people ... it's too idealistic ... it's theoretical

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Feb 21 2005, 12:53 pm

Hi, everybody!

I deleted a bunch of my posts and going to clarify things here, in this one.
Sorry if you were a bit confused, but here is the light that will explain it: Smile

Motek, all your examples are very nice, but often H' has different plans for people.

You do not know how why and what of every situation, and therefore cannot just say: "well, if you really wanted..." and send me and others on an undeserved guilt trip especially here, on a sharing forum for women

I think you should be a bit more forgiving, especially becasue you do not know WHY we cannot, even if we say we really want (and according to you if we wanted, we would have it).

As far as my personal situation - I am in it b/c for many reasons, one of them being where I was born, which I had no controll over, so discussing my past or future will be a bit pointless, and I did not request help in sorting this issue out - we go to our Rav with such issues, who knows us & our situation very well.

IY'H, in the future, my husband will be able to learn full time, but right now this is impossible and we just accept the fact.

I hope this post cleared all confusion caused by my other deleted posts.

Last edited by ForeverYoung on Tue, Feb 22 2005, 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Mon, Feb 21 2005, 1:17 pm

in another version of the story, it was when R' Yaakov Yosef of Polonoye came to check out the Baal Shem Tov. When the Besht told him that you can learn a lesson from everybody, even a [gentile], he said he couldn't accept that.

The Besht told him: yes you can, you just don't want to!

R' Yaakov Yosef left the Besht and as he walked down the road, a gentile farmer asked him for help with his wagon. R' Yaakov Yosef said he couldn't help him.

The farmer said: you can, you just don't want to!

Having just heard that very line from the Besht, R' Yaakov Yosef made an about-face and went back to the Baal Shem Tov and became his disciple.

yehudis

Tue, Feb 22 2005, 12:24 pm

Back to the topic at hand, and without getting personal, I think this is much more complicated than it seems.

What about Moshe Rabbeinu who very much wanted to enter Eretz Yisrael, but wasn't able nevertheless? Did he not want it enough?

Or, closer to this generation, what about the Lubavitcher Rebbe who never had any children? Did he and his wife not want them enough?

Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis has a very moving chapter in her book The Commited Life about her husband's illness and death and how the answer to her and her family's prayers was no.

On a more personal level, we had a friend who passed away from cancer, lo aleinu, at the age of 35, after an 8-months long downhill struggle. Nothing helped him, and it was only getting worse. So at what point do you keep davening and when do you accept the inevitable? Do you still pray when they are talking to the Rav about turning off the machines?

So the question, as I see it, is not how to get what we want, but how to want what Hashem wants. What was that saying? Something like, "Give me the strength to change what can be changed and the strength to accept what cannot be changed and the wisdom to distinguish between the two."

sarahd

Wed, Feb 23 2005, 2:04 am

OTOH, Yehudis, how about Leah who was supposed to marry Esav (he was her bashert) but managed to change that through her tears and tefillos? It's not so simple. Possibly, Moshe really, really wanted to enter E"Y, but also knew that it would be better in certain ways for the Jews if he didn't, so he didn't insist. Also, he davened 515 tefillos and then Hashem told him to stop or else He would have to accept his tefilla and He didn't want to. So you see that Moshe could have changed the decree if he had REALLY wanted to (against Hashem's expressed desire, kivyachol).

So, I think that people can do most things if they really want to - things that are in human hands, that is, not things such as being cured from illness r"l. The question is, is a person mechuyav to want something like kollel life in such measure that he will do anything to achieve it? I think not.