Letting Kids run around at shul

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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stem

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:21 pm

mumsy23 wrote:

So I am not deserving of the shul experience until my children are grown? That is not fair. Maybe such sensitive daveners should be the ones to daven at home.

Actually, no. The men have an obligation to daven with a minyan. Women don't. Personally, I feel that if a woman feels like her tefila is lacking because she's not with a minyan, she may want to take a good look at her priorities. During your childbearing years, it's your job to take care of your children, not to daven with a minyan. Tell Hashem, it's not fair. but that's the fact.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:26 pm

Stem, I agree with you 100%!

shayna82

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:29 pm

mumsy23 wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

If mothers with disruptive children wish to daven, they should do so at home. Along with the women that feel the need to talk during davening.

What is a disruptive child? My child will babble in shul and say "book!" or something like that. So I am not deserving of the shul experience until my children are grown? That is not fair. Maybe such sensitive daveners should be the ones to daven at home.

I agree with your point that if a child is talking in a low tone and someone has a problem, she should daven at home, since shul is not just for adults. HOwever, if your child is making noise and causing a disruption, then its the parent job to see to it that her child is quiet.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:30 pm

But what about the child's chinuch--learning that we don't talk in shul, even quietly?

Tefila

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:31 pm

Quote:

Personally, I feel that if a woman feels like her tefila is lacking because she's not with a minyan, she may want to take a good look at her priorities. During your childbearing years, it's your job to take care of your children, not to daven with a minyan. Tell Hashem, it's not fair. but that's the fact.

I sooo agree Thumbs Up

shayna82

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:32 pm

im sorry, but you can teach it all you want but a two year old dosnt understand that you CANT talk at all.

stem

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:33 pm

Exactly why a 2 year old should not be in shul in the first place.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:34 pm

So why not wait until the child can learn that lesson, rather than raising another generation of talkers? Confused

shayna82

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:37 pm

there are time when it is appropriate to bring a two year old to shul. I.e-family bar mitzva, shavous, holidays, duchining. so give me a break that he dosnt belong there. I agree that ideally one would wait till the child is older so he can understand that.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 10:46 pm

The only times I have heard that kids davka should be in shul is Aseres HaDibros and Shofar blowing (with the understanding that if they begin to show signs of making noise, they are brought out immediately).

I have never heard of bar mitzvah, yom tov, or duchening.

ChavieK

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 12:26 am

Even Shofar blowing is a problem. There is usually someone who blows for women & children imediatly after davening or sometime in the afternoon. Iworked hard to get a babysitter for Yom Tov.I used to sit in the isle by the door & mothers would bring their kids in for the last kollos & keep telling them to be quiet.It was disturbing.Alittle coo or something is ok(moms personal responsibility about the chinuch of speaking in shul)I'm only dicussung disruption of others tfilah.But davening isn't babysitting time.I beleive it was Reb Twerski who said womens lives are like seasons, they change &you have to know what the season is. She said thats why our Bubbys said so much Tehilim,b/c when their children needed them they could stop & talk to them in the middle.

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 2:26 am

stem wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

So I am not deserving of the shul experience until my children are grown? That is not fair. Maybe such sensitive daveners should be the ones to daven at home.

Wow, stem, you are 100% right.

I am a little Confused

on this thread. Since when is coming to shul a mitzva for women? (apart from shofar, megila and zachor according to some opinions) Women are exempt from positive time-bound mitzvas, like davenning with a minyan. One of the reasons is that they are involved with the constant mitzva of raising children. We have to get out of our Xian-influenced attitudes that going to a place of worship is more of a mitzva than caring for our children. If you go to daven, daven at home. If you go to socialize, find another opportunity to do something else during the week. If you go to educate your children about shul, then you are educating them that a shul is a place to run around and make a noise.

Who gave a woman the right to disturb the davenning for men who are obligated in it? Or, for that matter, that of older/ younger women who no longer/ are not yet up to raising children and now their mitzva is to daven?
Chana didn't go to the Beis Hamikdash (Temple) while Shmuel was little and stayed at home with him.

To the poster who is due to give birth - like someone said, if you need the help, your husband should stay home and look after the older child. That way only one man's davenning will be interrupted and not a whole congregations.

I grew up in a shul where everyone talked. Now, I have had the zechus to daven in many shuls where everyone is quiet and davens. That is beauty. It is also the halacha. After the Chelminiski pogroms (Tach v'tat) the Gedolim of the time said that they were a punishment for talking in shul, and that people should strengthen themselves in that area.

suomynona

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 4:17 am

I agree with Stem, mummyof6 and crayon.
Shul is not made for women.

If you are single or don't have young children and want to go, kol hakavod. I went every week when I was single. There's a time and place for everything.

sarahd

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 5:04 am

Another vote for keeping shul a place to daven with kavana! Thumbs Up

I agree completely with stem, mummyof6, etc. and congratulate you on your posts.

gryp

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:20 am

Quote:

Before I was frum, I davened at a lubavitch shul on Yom kippur and there was a baby that was crying and some old ladies started shushing and complaining. The Rav stopped the davening and spoke to the congregation. He said something like "children in shul are nachas. These are the people who are going to one day I'H fill the shul. The crying is music to my ears!"

that's nice if its only onebaby.
but imagine that times 20. shock

amother

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:27 am

I think times have changed a bit.
More young couples are wanting a place where husbands and wives can daven. Our shuls here have set childrens programs for when kids reach 2 or 3.

At my shul, our rebbetzin brings her little kids, even the baby.

I do agree common sense needs to be used though, because other moms do let the kids run wild and are completely oblivious to them.

mom3boys

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:12 am

I thought the point of the thread was children in shul, not women.

By the way, in my experience it is the children that go to shul with their tatties or older siblings that cause most of the raucous, not the ones who go with their mommies.

shayna82

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

yes times have changed. it has become a family event to come to shul, and I love that. I think it should be like that. However, if your kids are wild. or kvetchy, dont come. But to keep little kids home on nice holidays, and special events is well I think selfish. why cant their pure little neshama get some kedusha too? Im sorry, but I just dont agree with most of you. but thats okay:)

shayna82

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:28 am

and what about the woman who risked everything to become baal teshuva. they should stay home and set their table and play with their kids and not come to shul, because some people thinks thats crazy. she is longing to be in shul, to be part of everyone.

I dont go by an eruv, but my son who is almost three goes and he is 95% behaved when he goes with my husband. he knows he dare open his mouth.

granolamom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:36 am

I think that some of the problem is that some people have an attitude that they deserve to do what they want. I am NOT referring to anyone on this board, but to some people I know IRL.
some mothers feel that it is their RIGHT to send young children to shul with dad so they get a break. It isn't supposed to work that way. I wouldn't send my 2 yo with dh to a business meeting because I want a break. shul is HOLY, yes pure neshamas should be allowed in. but decorum is mandatory. It is just plain wrong, imo, to expect others to 'help out' a guy with kids thereby giving up their daavening -- the reason they are in shul in the first place.
some mothers feel it is their RIGHT to daaven in shul, even if it means bringing along kids. fine, as long as your kids are not disruptive kol hakavod. but if they are fighting, or miserable you need to leave. your kids do not owe it to you to behave in shul. they possibly should, yes, but know your child. some kids cannot handle it (whether they are toddlers, rowdy 5 yo's or behaviorally challenged 7 yo's).
sometimes it is necessary to put the needs of the kehilla before your own. if your child is disruptive, he does not belong in shul. no babysitting? then stay home until it becomes possible to once again daaven in shul.
as far as chinuch, what's wrong with teaching children that until they are able to sit and daaven quietly at your/your dh's side, their tefillos will be heard from home?
why are we complacent about teaching children that its OK to talk in shul?
nothing wrong with teaching children that the chiyuv his father has ..and ALL the men have to daaven with kavana trumps his mothers desire to be a part of the social aspect of daavening? or even his mother's desire to answer to kedusha and hear laining? I think that is a valuable lesson to, its about being a part of a community.
but lots of people disagree with me so I generally keep my thoughts to myself.

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