Letting Kids run around at shul

frummom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:43 am

but that's exactly the point! if your 3 year old goes to shul and knows he has to be quiet (and actually is for 95% of the time!) - then you have done your job of being mechanech your child of how to behave in a shul, and by all means he should go! BUT if your child is running around, no matter how beautiful it is to soak up the kedusha of the shul - it's not the time or place. believe me, I would love to send my son to shul (he's 7 already), and I know his friends go - but I know my son, and there is no way he can behave properly for that long, so he stays home. why should my husband's davening, and all the men around him, be a disaster? when he's old enough to go, he'll go. until then, we stay home - and yes, sometimes that's very hard. being home with a newborn and a few other little kids is very, very hard. but that's our job! would I like to go to shul on shabbos? sure, and one day it'll happen - but not now.

mimsy7420

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:50 am

stem wrote:

mumsy23 wrote:

So I am not deserving of the shul experience until my children are grown? That is not fair. Maybe such sensitive daveners should be the ones to daven at home.

Actually, no. The men have an obligation to daven with a minyan. Women don't. Personally, I feel that if a woman feels like her tefila is lacking because she's not with a minyan, she may want to take a good look at her priorities. During your childbearing years, it's your job to take care of your children, not to daven with a minyan. Tell Hashem, it's not fair. but that's the fact.

I have to agree with this one....

stem

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:51 am

granola, I think you figured out the root of the problem. It's not about "ME" it's about the community. What right does one person have to disrupt an entire congregation?

My husband and I agree that teaching the importance of davening is so important. Our kids will have to practically BEG us to let them go to shul, because we won't let them unless they are truly ready. Otherwise, we daven at home, and like I said before, my husband takes them in for the last 5 minutes so they get the feeling of specialness about the davening.

southernbubby

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 9:57 am

Granolamom, you have a lot of wisdom and should NOT keep it to yourself, but should share it with others. I am happy to hear that there are young mothers who feel that ladies my age have the right to daven rather than be expected to babysit so that the young mothers can relax.

mumsy23

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 10:13 am

I think we are going a little bit extreme here. I am not saying that a child that outrite talks in shul or runs around being extremely disruptive should be allowed to do so. The parents must be there to haul the kid out if he is getting out of hand.

My point was that it should not be a blanket rule that all mothers stay home untill their kids are grown. I realize that it is not a mitzvah for women to daven in shul, I never said it was. And to those of you who want to make this into a feminist issue, PLEASE, not the right thread for it. Nobody here said that women need to daven in shul just as much as men or that we want to fulfill some kind of mitzvah. And I can take care of my children (which I KNOW is my #1 priority) AND be able to take in some inspiration so I have something to give over to them spiritually as well!

What I am saying is that I, as a frum mother, I am busy 24/7 with my child and barely feel any connection to yiddishkeit during the week. By the time baby gets to sleep I am so exhausted I can't even think about davening or the like. Shabbos is my one day when I can go to shul and reconnect. Obviously my child is in the shul with me, I do not let her roam free and if she gets too noisy I take her out. People need to be more understanding of children being their in general and no matter how well-behaved they are, a family environment is not going to be 'pin-drop' silent. I don't even see that as an ideal, I think it is beautiful that families can come to shul and feel apart of the community.

kutiepie

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 10:48 am

Quote:

I thought the point of the thread was children in shul, not women.

By the way, in my experience it is the children that go to shul with their tatties or older siblings that cause most of the raucous, not the ones who go with their mommies.

that has been my experience as well

mimsy7420

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 10:50 am

If there was only one or two mothers who brought their babies to shul, and those babies were relatively well behaved and just cooed and babbled to themselves quietly. Then fine. It's not really about hearing a pin drop. It's more about decorum.

But this usually isn't the case. In most shuls there are MANY young mothers, and if they ALL brought their babies to shul there could be a symphony of babies cooing to themselves, then that is very very disruptive.

mumsy23

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 11:06 am

I am actually very surprised at most of the posters on this thread. I always thought of Jews and frum environments to be tolerant of mommies, babies and the noise that comes along with that. It seems very non jewish to me to expect parents to stay home because they have small children.

As I said above, it is a mitzvah to populate the world and I don't feel that should come at the expense of being able to experience shul along with other member of the community. Baruch Hashem my shul has been very tolerant of young children. I feel bad for people who are apart communities that give the evil eye when all they want to do is daven.

mimsy7420

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 11:14 am

mumsy23 wrote:

What's non jewish about it? That people need kavana to daven? OK people don't need to be able to hear a pindrop to daven, but if everyone brought their babies to shul you wouldn't even be able to hear the chazan.
Mommies and babies do not belong in shul. Children who can sit nicely with their parents do.
It's been like that since the beginning of time. When a mother has young children at home she doesn't go to shul. That's not non jewish - that's Jewish.

shayna82

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 11:48 am

mumsy23 wrote:

ditto, I feel the same way!

granolamom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 11:56 am

I'm understanding of children who begin to fuss and their mothers quickly quiet/soothe them. I'm understanding of an older child who asks her mother in a relatively loud voice to find the place or to ask if she can go out and play with the other kids. again, you have to know your child, and the tolerance of the kehilla. if you are getting lots of comments or stares and shhhhh's, then take a hint and stay home until your child is older. or find a shul where the members tolerate more noise.

I don't think this is not a jewish philosophy. children are central to our practices, which is why I, as a mother, stay home to give my children the attention they deserve rather than continuously shush them in shul.

again, know your child. my kids can't sit quietly long. if yours can with minimal noise/disruption, kol hakovod. I'll admit I'm a bit envious.

Mitzvahmom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 11:57 am

It depends what community you live in...

Where we live, it's tollerated though some do complain..

When we visited NY, one of the shul's asked me to leave because my kids were unfamiliar with the shul so they wanted to "explore" so to speak. My youngest was also used to being able to kiss the torah, so it was hard for him at first. Once he voiced his request the men's side parted and he walked proudly up to kiss it.

Just like the other mom said, I work hard all week and go to school. Shabbos is the only time I really get some time in the community. Yes I make sure to come just as the children's program is starting so that there are less issues.

imanut

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 1:15 pm

I think that by age 6 a child is certainly old enough to go to shul and sit quietly next to the father. I don't think that a father should bring a not toilet trained child to shul. I don't think anyone should be expected to watch anyone elses' kids in shul.
I have not been in shul on shabbos since my first was born, but on yom tov I always bring them, for birchas kohanim, aseres hadibros etc. if they cry, I take them out.
I think ppl should realize that these times are important for children to be in shul if they are ever to learn what shul is all about. as long as there is a parent taking care of the child and making sure the child doesn't b/cm rowdy/disruptive, be tolerant.
I find that a shul where everyone hisses "shh, shh!" if a child makes the slightest peep is a pretty sad place.

1stimer

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 1:28 pm

Quote:

Shuls are not just for davening, they are for all of klal yisroel to daven AND reconnect to their judaism once a week. And it is a great place to mechanech your children about the beauty of Judaism and ritual.

the best place for being mechanech children about judaism is AT HOME. The 'heart' of judaism is at home, and that is where it is transmitted from generation to generation.

Raisin

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 2:09 pm

Another point - those of us who don't live in large frum communities, and our kids do not have shomer shabbos friends across the street, shabbos can be a pretty bleak day, especially the long summer days.

If I would keep my kids home all shabbos they would be climbing the walls, and would really not enjoy shabbos.

Shabbos is a lot of don'ts for kids. Going to Shul is one of the only do's, besides eating.

What do you all think of kids accompianing fathers to shul, and running around outside some or all of the time? (thats what happens in my parents shul. The building is also a school so there is a closed in playground where all the kids play.)

southernbubby

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 2:23 pm

Rivky, one can understand what your situation is. I think that if your kids are safe outside, than there is no problem with letting them play there. Of course you know that unless someone is appointed to supervise them, fights will start or other unsafe behavior could result.
The issue is not just disturbing others from davening, it is the chinuch that your child is getting. For example, the elderly Russians here do not know much about yom tovim other than the obligation to say yizkor. They do not know at all how to behave in a shul and on Yom Kippur, when we are trying to hear Krias Ha Torah, they stream in en masse, jabbering away and drowning out the laining. While we are glad that at least they want to say yizkor, they are so annoying that the shul arranged a special room and service just for them. Yes, I realize that we need to have ahavas Yisroel for them, even if they annoy us, but because they never learned how to behave in shul, it is hard to appreciate their presence. We don't want our children to be in that category.

TzenaRena

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 3:28 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

The only times I have heard that kids davka should be in shul is Aseres HaDibros and Shofar blowing (with the understanding that if they begin to show signs of making noise, they are brought out immediately).

I have never heard of bar mitzvah, yom tov, or duchening.

Crayon, the Alter Rebbe does say to bring children to shul, that from the time that they answer Amen they become destined for Olam HaBa.

"As for those that run around and play", the Ater Rebbe says "BETTER NOT to bring them at all."

IOW, the preferred thing is to bring a child and be mechanech him to listen quietly and answer Amen.

It doesn't sound like one should wait till the child can read and daven himself to earn his Olam HaBa, it seems that this is a zchus that a child should have as soon as possible, if only he can behave respectfully.

Duchening is definitely a minhag, the Rebbeim's children went under their tallis at duchening.

mom3boys

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 3:43 pm

Quote:

But this usually isn't the case. In most shuls there are MANY young mothers, and if they ALL brought their babies to shul there could be a symphony of babies cooing to themselves, then that is very very disruptive.

I don't think children speaking to their parents in normal quiet voices, or babies cooing is as disruptive as grown men talking about miscellaneous stuff (ie. cars, baseball, shul politics, last week's fabregen, tuitions, schools....)