Letting Kids run around at shul

TzenaRena

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 3:59 pm

mom3boys,I agree. The Alter Rebbe uses the phrase "those that run back and forth" about children being disruptive. Just because someone needs to hear a pin drop doesn't mean children should be excluded, or don't belong there.

If they really disrupt there is no question. We all know those kids who weave in and out between everyone's feet, playing noisily.

But many children are well behaved, even if they need to ask for something from time to time.

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 6:35 pm

mom3boys wrote:

I don't think children speaking to their parents in normal quiet voices, or babies cooing is as disruptive as grown men talking about miscellaneous stuff (ie. cars, baseball, shul politics, last week's fabregen, tuitions, schools....)

Could the fact that the men in your shul talk like that during davenning, be anything to do with the fact that their mummies and daddies brought them to shul before they were ready and they got used to talking in shul?

To the poster who said that it is mostly little kids with their tatties who disrupt - why are they there with their tatties when they are too little? Often because their mummies think shul is a babysitting service.

Crayon210

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 7:01 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

Crayon, the Alter Rebbe does say to bring children to shul, that from the time that they answer Amen they become destined for Olam HaBa.

I have not heard many kids in the age bracket we're discussing saying amen. Confused

Quote:

"As for those that run around and play", the Ater Rebbe says "BETTER NOT to bring them at all."

IOW, the preferred thing is to bring a child and be mechanech him to listen quietly and answer Amen.

Preferred, but unfortunately it doesn't tend to work.

Quote:

It doesn't sound like one should wait till the child can read and daven himself to earn his Olam HaBa, it seems that this is a zchus that a child should have as soon as possible, if only he can behave respectfully.

That's a big if.

Quote:

Duchening is definitely a minhag, the Rebbeim's children went under their tallis at duchening.

Okay. (Source?)

southernbubby

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:15 pm

The age group that I used to see that made the most disruption were those kids who were old enough to daven at least some. These were kids who could be taught to be quiet for awhile.
Sending children under 6 to shul with no clear idea of who will take care of them is asking for trouble. People will resent it if a father is so busy davening that his small children are climbing about and crawling on people's feet.

mumsy23

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:28 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

Exactly my point. Children who are really disruptive should not be in shul. But to say that All mothers with small children should not come to shul is shock

. All the young mothers in my shul come to shul with their babies, even the rebbetzin and there is still a fine decorum in shul. The babies coo and goo and the older kids ask their mothers for this or that but it's not like they are disturbing everyone.

granolamom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:31 pm

Quote:

or, is it possible that the reason no one is teaching certain kids proper behavior in shul because the fathers are busy shmoozing during daavening?

chickens and eggs...

granolamom

Wed, Jul 26 2006, 8:35 pm

Quote:

Children who are really disruptive should not be in shul. But to say that All mothers with small children should not come to shul is . All the young mothers in my shul come to shul with their babies, even the rebbetzin and there is still a fine decorum in shul. The babies coo and goo and the older kids ask their mothers for this or that but it's not like they are disturbing everyone

ITA.
and its possible that your toddler is better at sitting quietly than my 7 yo. so again, its up to each mother to know her child and make that decision. I don't think anyone is saying that all mothers should sit at home. just the mothers of children who are disruptive (and that's another word with a subjective definition).

mimsy7420

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 10:10 am

I think if a shul already has a problem with the men and women yapping away and its hard to hear already, then even more so children who can't sit nicely and quietly such as babies, shouldn't be in shul.
Maybe if a shul is relatively quiet then it wouldn't matter as much if a few babies were cooing.
But the former has been my experience, so I don't know what it's like to be in a quiet shul, because my shul is so big.

Marion

Thu, Jul 27 2006, 10:06 pm

My son, B'H, has been great. I usually just take him Shabbat morning, although until we moved I'd started going Friday night too. If he started to babble or cry (he's now 5 months) I would just take him out. We're a small shul, although there was recently an attempt to set up a room for games and toys in the basement. We have several young families (the Rav has 4 grandchildren under 18 months!), and most of them act the same way. Those who don't are nudged by the others to toe the line, so to speak.

No, I don't think you're wrong. And in the middle of Shmoneh Esrei, babbling, cute as it is, can be just as disruptive as running around.

raizy

Sun, Aug 20 2006, 11:13 pm

alright bash me. but I do send my young sons to shul. I send my 7 yrs old and sometimes like friday night or mincha time I send my 4 yrs old. they want to go and all they do is play. outside or inside. of course mincha time they have a progrom for them. every week a different father tells them a story and eats with them etc. so not to disturb the other men. our shul is full of little kids boys in it at all times. I agree a toddler who has a diaper on should stay home. but once the kid is old enough to be self sufficiant then why cant the child go to shul.

and YES shul is a babysitting service. it gives me a brake for 2 hrs from my sons. don't think that I am not doing nothing . I am watching the rest of my children. getting the house in order. getting everyone dressed. I am busy feeding my newborn. which can take 2 hrs or more. so no I am not sleeping in and letting my hubby take the boys to give me a brake . I still have lots of things to do. but it does make my life easier. if the 2 oldest boys our out of our house.

also I relized that it depends where you lived and how u were brought up. if u take little kids to shul or not. so every shul or country or city everyone does it so differently . that it is not in our power to judge anyone.

southernbubby

Mon, Aug 21 2006, 12:09 am

Raizy, is your husband watching the kids? If the children's father is taking responsibility than no one can complain. People do not want to be dumped on and we cannot judge those people either. If I don't go to shul to babysit, should someone judge me for not being willing to?

shlomitsmum

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:07 am

Here are my 2 cents,
When my kids were younger I stayed home.

Shul is a spiritual place were people should be able to daven with kavanah, it is not a social club!

Any child who is not capable to understand that he/she must not talk, yell, play tag at the bimah interrupt kaddish etc... during services should be kept at HOME.

Mothers must remember that Men are the ones bound by time consuming mitzvot. shul atendance is not a must .stay home!

My kids are not perfect either ....my son who is young (6at the time) and a natural Lawyer pulled a bad stunt at shul once (chatting loudly during kaddish).....As soon as I got my hands on him I TOOK HIM HOME! let me tell you He did not attend for a month ....he had no social life or treats etc. NOTHING COOL HAPPENED (no violence was used).
He knows that shul goofing is one of the Biggies in our family.

We told him that his behavior was shameful to our family and worse disrespectful to other people. he had to "prove" himself worthy again by doing the right thing ... Apologize to his tatty for arguing with him in shul ,and to our friend whose kaddish he interrupted .

It's been a year now....B'H he learned!
He comes to me quietly now and I help him solve any problems.In the hallway thats the rule no sanctuary chatting.
So let's not underestimate our kids! they are mature and smart ! they can be taught right and wrong early on.

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 9:53 am

Good for you shlomitsmom for actually teaching your child how to behave rather than waiting for him to figure it out or waiting for someone else to teach him. While there is nothing wrong with trying to make mitzvahs fun, it should not be at the expense of teaching children that there are some real expectations out there.

ssbarnes

Fri, Sep 08 2006, 6:37 am

When my children were younger, I was fortunate to be living in an area witha shul that made accommodations for children. There was a play room for the little ones and we as their mothers took turns as adult supervision, so that some of us moms could daven.

Then there was a children's service for those that were about 5-12. A dvar Torah for their age group will have more impact than listening to one intended for adults.

I didn't realize how spoiled I was until we moved.

We have been here for over a year. When we first started going to shul there were no children over the age of 3 (and those children had NO rules). Since my children have been going every week a few of their friends have joined them, but they are bored. I have offered to volunteer to set up a junior congregation, etc. but while they say they will start something, they don't.

My children are b/w the ages at 7 & 12. They walk 5 miles each way to shul (we couldn't afford to live closer and are thankful we don't live farther) without complaint. They are well behaved throughout the service, but by kiddush they are ready to be children, so it makes eating lunch difficult.

It would be easier for to just stay home with my children, but what would that teach them?

In fact we are going to go out of town for Rosh Hashanah just because we want to be somewhere that our children can enjoy it, rather than feel like it is a chore. I can't go out of town every Shabbos.