Attention Litivish or Chassidish Mothers and Freidasima

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:41 am

anon wrote:

I may not be litvish or chassidish, but I still think I can question: Why on earth would it be a good thing for a girl to think that these things are "perverted". She will eventually get married, her husband will want to, and it's not easy to undo an entire childhood of misconceptions. It's one thing for it to be so private that your child just never considers it. But to learn it's perverted? Not only would it be damaging to her future marriage, it's LYING.

Sorry, but in my marriage, it's not just my husband who 'wants to'.... first of all, thinking it's perverted throughout your teen years will certainly scar your perceptions for and during marriage.

Second of all, what do you think will happen when the hormones kick in and she suddenly feels like she wants to too? She'll start hating herself. Is that what you want for your daughter??

And finally... please, PLEASE tell me you've told her about her period already!

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:12 am

YESHASettler wrote:

And finally... please, PLEASE tell me you've told her about her period already!

Sure have. Ages ago.

YeshaSettler wrote:

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

Says you.

Here's the followup.
She ran to tell my dh about it this morning before I woke up. He told her that it's ossur and not done and that the neighbors are not beseder and that the only reason I said that it is done is because I didn't want to say bad things about the neighbors and that I didn't know what to say. She asked me if that's true and I said yes.

I forgot to mention in my original post that she was able to hear them kissing all the way up to our balcony. She was so grossed out by what she saw that she was physically nauseous. She couldn't eat the food I made for her because of it. My husband says that the mere fact that she got such a shock from what she saw is enough of a reason to make sure she gets back on track and the only way to get her back to her equilibrium is to let her think that it's wrong. He says it's allowed by halacha to lie about this. I said that she'll eventually know I'm a liar and he said that the important thing here is not if I'm a liar or not - it's her state of mind. I asked what about all those 12 year old girls mentioned on this thread who hear everything from their friends. He said that hearing is nothing like seeing. What she saw was very, very explicit. We all know that once you've seen something it never really goes away. She got a big, big shock.

Summary: I am fine with the way my husband handled it and I have alot of confidence in his ability to educate my kids the right way. When it comes to chinuch issues he always does the right thing.

I am so glad I'm married to him.

Thanks for your support. Maybe I am a great mom.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:20 am

YESHASettler wrote:

anon wrote:

to the OP, I have to tell you that what yesha wrote is 100% true. intimacy is the most natural thing in marriage and it is not a dirty thing and should not be seen as a dirty thing. this is the jewish view of the matter.
only in christianity is s@x looked upon as dirty.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:23 am

amother wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

And finally... please, PLEASE tell me you've told her about her period already!

Sure have. Ages ago.

YeshaSettler wrote:

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

No offense to your husband OP, but this is a very scary thing to tell a 12 year old. that a couple is not beseder because they are doing something in the confines of their own home? instead of making up lies like that, which she will find out about in life, why not talk to your neighbor and tell them to either close their windows when together or to be more careful. I am sure that if they knew that they were heard they would change either where they were or what they were doing or they would close their windows.

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:23 am

Please, enlighten me oh great amother... what branch of orthodoxy says intimacy in marriage is Assur?

Based on your original post, I'm going to guess that you live either on the third floor of an apartment building, or higher. The newlyweds live on at least the second floor. So they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, despite the window(s) being open.

How you raise your kids is your business (until you decide to post something like this on a public forum) but the way you're going, I wouldn't be surprised if one day your own daughter end up writing a post (or at least feels like writing a post) about how she finds being intimate with her husband to be gross and disgusting and painful and how she hates going to Mikvah because of what it means after.

This is Judaism. Not Victorian, England.... how does she think more Jewish babies are made? How can you expect her to have a healthy intimate relationship with her husband if she's spent the first 18, 19, 20 years of her life thinking it's 'nauseating'????

Do you expect the Chuppah to be some automatic switch where she magically goes from wanting to vomit at the thought to actually wanting to kiss her husband???

DrMom

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:54 am

amother wrote:

YeshaSettler wrote:

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

I think your husband did not do the right thing. At all. Tell me, what do you (or your husband) think is going to happen

... when she starts to feel physically attracted to boys? Do you want her to hate herself?

... in her kallah classes when the nice kallah teacher explains to her that all those "perverted" things she saw that couple doing are perfectly normal, and she is expected to do the same with her chosson in a few days?

... when she discovers that she was born as a result of such "perversion"? Will you tell her that she was delivered fully born by the stork?

Judasim does not teach that physical intimacy is a perversion. If you want to teach this, perhaps you should convert to Catholicism, where s*x is viewed as a necessary evil for procraetion, and the highest ideal for women is not to be awife and mother, but a celibate nun.

Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:57 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Please, enlighten me oh great amother... what branch of orthodoxy says intimacy in marriage is Assur?

No branch of orthodoxy says intimacy is assur. But a sheltered 12 year old girl needs to think that right now. When the time is right she will get the whole education from oh great amother. But until such time or until such time as the neighbors decide to enlighten her she will continue to live in blissful ignorance. You don't have to agree with how I bring up my children. It's ok.

yeshasettler wrote:

Based on your original post, I'm going to guess that you live either on the third floor of an apartment building, or higher. The newlyweds live on at least the second floor. So they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, despite the window(s) being open.

There is no reasonable expectation of privacy if the neighbors above you have a big porch from whence they can see right into your apartment. Despite the halacha of not looking into people's windows, children tend to do it.

yeshasettler wrote:

How you raise your kids is your business (until you decide to post something like this on a public forum) but the way you're going, I wouldn't be surprised if one day your own daughter end up writing a post (or at least feels like writing a post) about how she finds being intimate with her husband to be gross and disgusting and painful and how she hates going to Mikvah because of what it means after.

This is Judaism. Not Victorian, England.... how does she think more Jewish babies are made? How can you expect her to have a healthy intimate relationship with her husband if she's spent the first 18, 19, 20 years of her life thinking it's 'nauseating'????

Do you expect the Chuppah to be some automatic switch where she magically goes from wanting to vomit at the thought to actually wanting to kiss her husband???

Doesn't work that way. I know plenty of girls who knew absolutely nothing till they got married. As far as I know they aren't posting on this forum about how grossed out they are. This brings us back to the old argument about how much to tell our kids and when. I'm not getting into that now.

mimivan

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:01 am

didn't it say in the Torah that Yitzchak and Rivkah were "seen" once by one of the wicked kings...
embarrassed

I'm sure there must be an explanation as to why their action was on a superior level to ours, but how much more so would it be wrongheaded to call cuddling and kissing "perverted" and "chiloni" It has its proper time and place. And questions about you two, well tell your daughter you needn't answer with any more detail than well..it has its proper time and place.

(btw..wouldn't a 12 year old girl read about this in the chumash with rashi???)

Maybe you could learn that section in chumash with her and explain how that is a lesson to us, because their being seen had a negative result...but it is a wonderful thing that they loved each other and someday when she is a kallah she will understand, but until then, that's all she needs to know.

DrMom

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:10 am

amother wrote:

Knowing "nothing" is different from learning that it's "perverted."

No, you didn't want to expose your daughter to this information at such a young age, and you have probably been very careful in her upbringing to not expose her to such sights. But she saw. Not on a [filthy] site or an R-rated film. She saw a frum couple who neglected to close their blinds. I think you need to tell her. You don't need to have a detailed, graphic discussion about it, but you need to tell her that it is something that married couples (yes, Jewish ones) do.

Also, consider that you are choosing to slander that couple's reputation for your daughter just to avoid having a difficult conversation with her...

Raizle

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:22 am

I haven't read all the responses but I think you answered correctly.
I would stress however that it is NOT disgusting. It is beautiful and an expression of love BUT it is private.

Honestly, although I understand your mortification that your daughter witnessed it, in a way take it as an opportunity to correct a misperception she has early in life so she doesn't grow up and go into marriage with an aversion to physical contact thinking it's disgusting.

It's not the way I'd want my child to learn but on the other hand maybe Hashem put her in a situation that she witnessed this to help her learn the truth for the future.

for sure tell your neighbor in a gentle way to be more careful. But be gentle about it, she is bound to be mortified when she finds out she was seen.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:22 am

amother wrote:

I am so glad I'm married to him.

I wonder how glad he would have been if he would have married a girls whose parents reinforced her feelings of disgust and fear around physical intimacy. Like someone said, she isn't innocent anymore, now she thinks that something natural, normal, and beautiful is disgusting. You can't just undo that with kallah classes before marriage, oh-- and she can't turn to her parents either because she either believes that a) her parents are liars or b) they think intimacy is disgusting. I'm sorry this situation happened, I also learned about intimacy when I was far too young, but I think your husband is not thinking about your daughters well being and rather his own comfort level.

Raizle

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:28 am

amother wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

And finally... please, PLEASE tell me you've told her about her period already!

Sure have. Ages ago.

YeshaSettler wrote:

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

Ok I just read this follow up.

With all due respect to your husband OP, and I don't want to cause SB issues here but for the sake of your daughter I have to say that I STRONGLY disagree with your husband's approach.
I feel his reaction is more damaging then what she witnessed and heard.

I suggest you both consult with someone who is an expert in chinuch about the right approach.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:37 am

amother wrote:

I am so glad I'm married to him.

Wrong. He's thinking purely about her. I asked him what will happen in a few years when she finds out we lied. He said that at that point she will totally understand why we lied. The relationship I have with my daughter is very, very open. We are very close and she knows that she can come to me about anything and I will never get angry or shame her in any way. Yes, I'm lying to her now in order to enable her to remain within her own comfort zone. It would absolutely shatter her world right now to know otherwise after what she saw. There's a big difference between hearing about something second hand and witnessing it with your own eyes. I saw how she reacted last night. You didn't.

I suspected that the responses here on imamother would be what they are. I will reiterate that I specifically requested responses by Charedi posters. I see that many of you are not. Thank you for weighing in but I'm not really interested in your opinions. Only the opinions of Charedim of all types.

I'm actually interested in FS's opinion as well because she is a professional and is able to separate her own opinions (which are very different to my own) from her professional opinion.

Thanks again, Everybody. Everything is taken into consideration. And please don't worry too much. She's not learning that it's "perverted". Nothing perverted about heterose@ual s$x.

Y'all have a good day. I sure will. And I have no problem doing the "unpopular" thing here. What's important is my daughter's psyche and that her parents are both on the same page.

IloveHashem613

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:54 am

amother wrote:

I am so glad I'm married to him.

OP- Normally I wouldn't comment on the way someone raises their kids but you posted on a "public" forum and asked for advice. You say you wanted the chareidi view and some of us are not chareidi. Okay, I wont' argue with that. But since the chareidi lifestyle tries to emulate the Torah in every detail of their lives, why don't you look at shir hashirim, which is written by Shlomo Hamelech, is that chareidi enough for you? Shir Hashirim is considered the holiest of holy books and it talks about the love between Hashem and the Jews through the analogy of the love between man and woman. And how beautiful and holy intimacy is when its done bekedusha. So pardon me if I might say that you can just look in the Torah itself and see what the view on intimacy should be.

Hashem gave you your daughter and you know best how to raise her but I think you and your husband made a big mistake here. Like everyone else said, she is now going to think that intimacy is disgusting and can be extremely confusing when she takes kallah classes and her kallah teacher is teling her to do something pleasurable which she has been engrained to think is disgusting. I think its very sad and wrong to let your daughter think this way. Personally if any chareidi person expressed to me that they believe its best to teach children to think intimacy and s*x is disgusting, I would not consider that person chareidi.

sarahd

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 4:03 am

amother wrote:

I suspected that the responses here on imamother would be what they are. I will reiterate that I specifically requested responses by Charedi posters. I see that many of you are not. Thank you for weighing in but I'm not really interested in your opinions. Only the opinions of Charedim of all types.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but there were chareidi responses here. All of them agreed with your first response. None of them thought your husband's approach was okay.

shalhevet wrote:

I really don't know how I would handle it. I tend more to your side of saying husbands and wives do behave like this, because saying it's assur is even worse - but it's kind of like choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea...

life'sgreat wrote:

You'd rather she walk around for the next few years thinking that hugging/kissing is wrong and perverted and things that only chilonim do? Do you have any idea how this would affect her beliefs of marriage?

I think you did well with your answer, given the circumstances. You can't make her 'unsee' what she saw, and had to work with that.

life'sgreat wrote:

Another thought - once your daughter'd get a little older and learn the facts from others, friends, from life itself, could you imagine what she'd be carrying around? That mom hates what she does etc...?

Grandmama wrote:

I think you did the right thing. Once she saw, there was nothing else you could do or say.
I believe in telling children the age appropriate truth. So when my DD asked me if only non Jews do such things, when she sees it on the street, I tell her that frum people do it also, but its not tznius to do it in public, and even non Jews who are more respectable do not do it on the streets either.