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Hourly wages - ethics question
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:27 pm
I have this issue at work where I can't work slowly, but I also can't work quickly for my entire shift. Basically, what works for me is to work very quickly for 50 minutes and break for 10, and repeat over the course of my shift.

The problem is, my job doesn't allow for 10-minute breaks. I'm paid by the hour, and I'm supposed to sign out if I stop working for more than 2 minutes.

My father, who teaches some ethics issues in his courses, said this recently came up in a class (in a university in the states, so not a frum setting) and there was pretty much unanimous agreement that if an employer is paying someone to work from home, then they are paying for output, even if the wage is hourly. IOW, they might say "50 shekels per 250 words" or "50 shekels per hour," but either way, as long as you produce enough to satisfy them, it's OK to take however much downtime you need. In theory, someone who could do 2,000 words an hour would be OK to work just one hour and be paid for an eight-hour shift.

I know that's not a halachic answer. But I was curious, what do you (especially fellow work-at-homers) think about this? Are all work at home jobs really about the output? What freedom, if any, should people working at home have to decide how they are going to get the work done?
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fiddle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:34 pm
I recently took a job from home (and then quit after a day) and was told that if I must check the kids or use the bathroom, I must clock out.

I do know however that when I was in the states and I also got paid on an hourly basis I didnt have to clock out every time I had to pee or took a break for a drink. I think that they do it on an honor system and in my head, if I were to get another job from home, I would not hesitate to ask what my rights are as an employee. whether I am at home or in an office, I am human all the same, and the setting should not make a difference and affect my paycheck.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:36 pm
when I worked in an office, also for an hourly wage, every time that I left my desk I had to also clock out. you are on someone's time so when you are on your time (ie: going to the bathroom, making yourself lunch) you need to deduct that from the amount of time that you are working for the company/office.


ETA:oops, I saw fiddles post and did not see the original post, so this is not about an at home job, but it is about an hourly wage paying job.
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fiddle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:41 pm
I never heard of it till I came here. its enough they pay you so little, they need to deduct bathroom time on top of that? and israeli taxes on top of it all - im in the red before I even could think of getting a job!

in all the offices I worked in, it was never an issue. I clocked in when I came in , and clocked out when I left. I had an hour for lunch, in or out of the office whatever I pleased. I even got paid overtime there!
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:55 pm
Interesting. I work hourly as well.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 3:56 pm
fiddle wrote:
I never heard of it till I came here. its enough they pay you so little, they need to deduct bathroom time on top of that? and israeli taxes on top of it all - im in the red before I even could think of getting a job!

in all the offices I worked in, it was never an issue. I clocked in when I came in , and clocked out when I left. I had an hour for lunch, in or out of the office whatever I pleased. I even got paid overtime there!

I think some bosses have the idea that they're doing you a chessed by letting you work from home, so they have the right to insist that every single second be devoted to work. Like you said, it almost never works that way in an actual office, where only the strictest of bosses would have a problem with people taking a few minutes to grab some coffee or chat with a coworker.

The thing is, all the bosses I've had for work from home jobs also pay less for the from-home work than they would if they made people come work in an office. And of course, they save tons on office space and on equipment. So basically, they want you to accept lower wages because you're at home, and to pay for your own equipment because you're at home, so when on top of that they say "oh and since you're at home, you have to put in 100% when you're on the clock" - it's annoying. As if they're doing a chessed, as if you haven't already "paid" for being an at-home employee... and as if making an employee sign out every single time they need a drink of water is remotely realistic...

But OTOH, a deal is a deal. How is it fair to lie and say "yes, I will definitely sign out if I spend a minute being unproductive" if I won't? But OTOH, if I were to say, "you know, I really need to take more downtime, and I expect you to pay me for it," I'd probably be fired and replaced by someone whose output is equal to or less than my own (and who is quite possibly lying about their own break time, and is in essence being paid for their output and not their time).
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fiddle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:05 pm
bottom line, choose your battle.

I dont know if I would lie, but I will definitely mention it and state with future job offers that I hope you do not expect me to keep punching in like an idiot if I have the runs or something. or perhaps if a child of mine needs to be cleaned up in a bathroom, imagine the accountant calculating my hours, wow! 9-10 10:01-10:02 out 10:09:10:17 back again and onwards and so forth. it was the biggest hassle to go and punch out and put a pacifier in my sleeping childs whimpering mouth and reload the page to clock back in 30 seconds later - turned out to be 2 minute later after the whole process. its a chutzpah and I dont think legally they can fire you for take a bathroom break. you are entitled to decent working conditions, this is not Auschwitz and working at home should be respected more, and should be on a higher paying bracket than in an office setting. there is nothing harder and less motivating than working at home.
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Aidelmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:21 pm
I think there is a middle path. I don't clock out if I go to the bathroom or take a drink, but I do clock out for breaks. My employer told me about the above but really it should be common sense. yes sometimes I work slower when I'm tired out - too bad. I think whats perfectly acceptable to do in an office can be done at home while working. if you have work to do in an office job I don't think it's ok to take a 10 minute break unless you have permission. shabbat when I worked in an office - in every place , I never had to clock out to use the bathroom.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:23 pm
Aidelmom wrote:
I think there is a middle path. I don't clock out if I go to the bathroom or take a drink, but I do clock out for breaks. My employer told me about the above but really it should be common sense. yes sometimes I work slower when I'm tired out - too bad. I think whats perfectly acceptable to do in an office can be done at home while working. if you have work to do in an office job I don't think it's ok to take a 10 minute break unless you have permission. shabbat when I worked in an office - in every place , I never had to clock out to use the bathroom.
we were told that we should. I dont know if everyone did that and I dont know if I even remembered each time to do that, but we were told that it is really not our time when we are punched in and if we want "our time" to punch out so to speak.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:33 pm
Aidelmom wrote:
yes sometimes I work slower when I'm tired out - too bad.

But that's what drives me nuts about the whole thing. If I work their way, I will be less productive, and they will not be happy. If I work my way, they are very happy (I've done things my way, taking a total of about an hour off over the course of a shift, and made up the time later). I know it's not right to do things my way if that's not what my boss is paying for. Still, it's frustrating. How can it be unethical to choose something that is ultimately beneficial for all involved?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:35 pm
New Office Policy

Dress Code:

* You are advised to come to work dressed according to your salary.
* If we see you wearing Prada shoes and carrying a Gucci bag, we will assume you are doing well financially and therefore do not need a raise.
* If you dress poorly, you need to learn to manage your money better, so that you may buy nicer clothes, and therefore you do not need a raise.
* If you dress just right, you are right where you need to be and therefore you do not need a raise.

Sick Days:

We will no longer accept a doctor's statement as proof of sickness. If you are able to go to the doctor, you are able to come to work.

Personal Days:

Each employee will receive 104 personal days a year. They are called Saturdays & Sundays.

Bereavement Leave:

This is no excuse for missing work. There is nothing you can do for dead friends, relatives or co-workers. Every effort should be made to have non-employees attend the funeral arrangements in your place. In rare cases where employee involvement is necessary, the funeral should be scheduled in the late afternoon. We will be glad to allow you to work through your lunch hour and subsequently leave one hour early.

Bathroom Breaks:

Entirely too much time is being spent in the toilet. There is now a strict three-minute time limit in the stalls. At the end of three minutes, an alarm will sound, the toilet paper roll will retract, the stall door will open, and a picture will be taken. After your second offense, your picture will be posted on the company bulletin board under the 'Chronic Offenders' category. Anyone caught smiling in the picture will be sectioned under the company's mental health policy.

Lunch Break:

* Skinny people get 30 minutes for lunch, as they need to eat more, so that they can look healthy.
* Normal size people get 15 minutes for lunch to get a balanced meal to maintain their average figure.
* Chubby people get 5 minutes for lunch, because that's all the time needed to drink a Slim-Fast.

Thank you for your loyalty to our company. We are here to provide a positive employment experience. Therefore, all questions, comments, concerns, complaints, frustrations, irritations, aggravations, insinuations, allegations, accusations, contemplations, consternation and input should be directed elsewhere.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:41 pm
This is one of the reasons I am happy that I work salary versus hourly (especially since I do half a day from home). BUT - we do have charge (billable) hour goals that we need to meet. Every person makes up their own budget and has to get it approved by the partner in charge. So I do sometimes have a question of what can be billed to the client - would not affect my salary at all but potentially would affect what they bill the client, or what realization they get on the job, etc. [Although I've also cynically came to the conclusion that the partners probrably bill the max they can get out of the client, irregardless if I spent less time on the job this year than I did last year.]
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Tamiri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:41 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Aidelmom wrote:
yes sometimes I work slower when I'm tired out - too bad.

But that's what drives me nuts about the whole thing. If I work their way, I will be less productive, and they will not be happy. If I work my way, they are very happy (I've done things my way, taking a total of about an hour off over the course of a shift, and made up the time later). I know it's not right to do things my way if that's not what my boss is paying for. Still, it's frustrating. How can it be unethical to choose something that is ultimately beneficial for all involved?
I rationalize: my work can be extremely boring, and my bosses know it (they warned me). IF I don't take breaks beyond toilet (Imamother is a break) I will have to go home after 3 hours because of the boredom. However, if I do break OR do Imamother while working, I can put in my 5 hours. They like me sitting there so that they don't have to be in the office, and me being there frees up the other gal to do important stuff. Is my rationalization 100% ethical? No. Am I getting the job done and keeping the seat warm because of it? Yes. So I think it's okay. My boss herself sometimes has me doing her private email, downloading pics of her kids from FB ect. so it's obvious to me that my work isn't so highly valued that they hesitate to take me away from it for silly things.
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fiddle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 4:44 pm
Lol ^
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 6:09 pm
I would do it the boss's way and clock out and then put in more time to make up for the detracted time.

I think employers who allow moms to work from home are necessarily more cautious about time keeping b/c some people are more likely to take advantage than in an office.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 6:53 pm
I think I know what the right thing is to do. It's just hard to shake the feeling that I'm being penalized for being fast.

I have coworkers who complete about 60% of what I do each shift, and they get paid for a full eight hours. Why shouldn't I? Just because I complete the work in half the time and then need a break? I'm still getting more done...

It's like a flashback to middle school, and getting "C"s for effort even though my work was excellent Exploding anger . I thought adult life wasn't supposed to be like that.
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Tova




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 21 2010, 7:10 pm
There is a TON of socializing in the office (at least mine) and I get WAY more done at home. There are department birthday cakes, and beginning of tax season cakes, and end of tax season happy hours, and PARTNERS stopping by to chat, and the human resources "fun group" and cube bingo and Halloween dress up contests, etc. etc. etc. So here I am, working half a day from home and capped at 40 hours per week (most of my colleagues put in WAY more hours) and the partner I report to wrote in my last evaluation that I get more done in 6 hours than others do in 10. And no, it's not because I am a super-fast worker or smarter than anyone there...it's because I work at home in the evenings with no work distractions. So I put chicken in and out of the oven, spend a few minutes here or there on calls, and I still get much more done. Oh - forget the fact that they ALL go out to lunch (or eat in the company kitchen where they are gone from their desks an hour+. Noon to 1:00 is also a great time for me to get work in without being bothered...I eat lunch when I get home an hour later.

Also, I never heard of supplying your own equipment working from home. I use a work-supplied (owned) laptop, additional monitor for an extra screen, printer, cables, etc.
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Aidelmom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 22 2010, 4:59 am
ora_43 wrote:
Aidelmom wrote:
yes sometimes I work slower when I'm tired out - too bad.

But that's what drives me nuts about the whole thing. If I work their way, I will be less productive, and they will not be happy. If I work my way, they are very happy (I've done things my way, taking a total of about an hour off over the course of a shift, and made up the time later). I know it's not right to do things my way if that's not what my boss is paying for. Still, it's frustrating. How can it be unethical to choose something that is ultimately beneficial for all involved?


I agree with you. it's totally ridiculous. I do take breaks because it's excruciatingly boring and my eyes start to burn. I don't charge for that time too. so yay, the company gets the best of both worlds Rolling Eyes

and shabbat that's really strange - I think you misunderstood- the rule about clocking out did not include using the bathroom and taking a drink but maybe it was different in your place (we weren't in the same city)
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Mrs.K




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 22 2010, 5:05 am
I also have to clock out if I get up for more then 1 minute.
Interestingly, I have to do this even though I don't get paid hourly! I get paid the same amount each month regardless of hours or days. They just want to make sure people are putting in full days. So that's the rule. More then a minute, punch out.
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e1234




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 22 2010, 5:15 am
so I will tell anyone who hires me that I do the following.

I timeoff if I'm taking any break. if I stop for a snack and a chat - I time off.
if I make a normal bathroom break or just go to the fridge for a drink then I don't time off.

I end up timing off a lot but I would rather that then steal from the employer.
I doubt an employer would agree to 10 minutes off an hour.

I work very quickly but I assume the people hiring me hire me because I work quicker and it ends up better for them.
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