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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 21 2005, 6:13 pm
I've noticed a conflict of interests expressed both on and off this forum, regarding privacy.

On the one hand, many (most?) people think that it's good for couples to live away from parents, but on the other hand, women complain that they don't have the help they need from family.

how did people manage when couples regularly moved in with parents or in-laws as newlyweds? They didn't have much privacy, except in their own room, but they certainly had family support and didn't have to start off married life all alone.

you hear about large families being raised in two rooms in Eretz Yisrael

You also read descriptions of families encircling a chatzar (courtyard), cooking outside, not much in the way of privacy.

Also, stories of life in Russia, where families were forced to share apartments, and where Lubavitch families in Samarkand etc. had refugees sleeping wall to wall in their homes.

how much privacy do we really need?
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technic




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 21 2005, 7:11 pm
depends on the individual (or individual family) - eg some pple thrive on kibbutz life, others dislike the idea...
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 21 2005, 8:02 pm
Atchually on one hand I wish we had that kibbutz family lifestyle on the other hand how much jealousy andd hate could brew from such a setting.... who knows! What
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micki




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 21 2005, 9:37 pm
you know what I think? I think this has evolved over time.
consider this in the olden days women were home all day while the men were out working the fields etc. the men were not the primary caregivers of the children, nor did they help out much with housework and such.
therefore for families to live together was a must. how else was a yong mother to cope with no back up? privacy issues were less well because the men were just not home at all and therefore what do they nhave to be private over?
today the men are helping out so much more in homes. they cook clean take care of kids, laundry bathe kids, change diaper- how many of your fathers or grandfathers (depending on your age) changed a diaper?
how many of our husbands change a diaper?
so the fact is that today because men are home so much more, there are so many other times during the day that require privacy.

on a sepreate note-
while I am grateful that my husband does all the above mentioned things, it is unnatural for him to do it. its not somehting he can do with out thought- its forcing him to act outside his natural capabilities. and because society has evolved that families no longer live next to each other to provide a constant backup help the husbands are in a way forced to become caregivers.
but is this the best thing for families? I don't know- I live next to my parents, and if they need some help that requires phisical strength and its at a time that my husband is supposed to be with the house like bathing or such- if the chouice is presented to him- go over to help aba or bathe the kids- wha tdo you think he chooses?!?!?!
I think my husband would be grateful if my family was able to help out in such a way that would free him up to do what is second nature to him.
and then to add a twist - there are some mothers out there like mine who also have young children. so who is my mother to turn to? and can I really turn to my mother to help out with MY little kids whan she has her own to deal with?


I think I sorta joined a few topics together her- but take what you want.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 21 2005, 10:07 pm
micki, that was a nice post to read. thanx for sharing.
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 22 2005, 4:53 pm
Interesting, but there is an idea about having your own daled amos right around you. So there is a thing about having your space. I wouldn't want to live in ghetto like conditions of the Jews in Russia, I don't think they enjoyed it either, it wasn't normal for them, they were forced into that way of living because the ones in charge of the countries then, saw the Jews as second class citizens and treated them that way.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 22 2005, 5:23 pm
micki wrote:

while I am grateful that my husband does all the above mentioned things, it is unnatural for him to do it


that's called avodas perach, what the Egyptians made the Jews do!

Quote:
. its not somehting he can do with out thought- its forcing him to act outside his natural capabilities


though he cooks and bakes! though many chefs are male

Quote:
. and because society has evolved that families no longer live next to each other


many people choose that on purpose!

and when others don't, you know, the couples who don't eat at home the first year because every Shabbos they go to the parents, and even on weekdays, they're with the parents, people comment and say how not good it is, and some advise that couples should davka move away

so if they choose to move, they deal with the consequences of loneliness and no support system unless they make one in their community, but they've got plenty of privacy

if they choose to live close to family, they may have support but more family obligations

I think that for couples from happy homes, it's not only okay for them to live near their families, but it's desirable and in their best interests to do so. I think it's unnatural and unhealthy to move away solely for the purpose of maintaining independence and one's "space".
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Chanie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 23 2005, 7:38 pm
Privacy is a definite must. It's not a modern concept, even in the desert when Bilaam came to curse the Jews, he saw the way the tents were set up and the privacy each person had and his curse was changed to a blessing. We remember this bracha every day in our davening. "Ma Tovu Oholecha Yaakov", "how great are your tents, yaakov"
Much earlier then that even, by Yaakov, who had 4 wives, they were all one family but each had separate living quarters.
In Russia, the fact that so many pple lived in close proximity wasn't by choice but by need. Now when people talk about yesteryear they talk with such longing, I bet in those days there was a lot of complaints. People tend to only remember the good not all the problems that there were.
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micki




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 23 2005, 8:22 pm
Quote:
micki wrote:

while I am grateful that my husband does all the above mentioned things, it is unnatural for him to do it


that's called avodas perach, what the Egyptians made the Jews do!


oy vey- what does that make me??? Wink
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ForeverYoung

Guest


 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 23 2005, 8:39 pm
Mother-in-law jokes did not appear out of the thin air......
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technic




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 24 2005, 3:57 am
micki whatever it makes u it makes me 2 embarrassed
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 24 2005, 3:59 am
and me 3!
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curlyhead




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 24 2005, 4:49 am
why can't one have privacy and still live near and even next door? we live next door and my parents and siblings only come over if they are invited.
You could still have your space - dalad amos even if you live nearby.You make limits. It does not mean you have to see them on a daily basis and you don't have to tell them everything.
With my husband out most of the day I appreicete being near my family, having their help and company.
I don't know how pple do it who live away from any family.
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klotzkashe




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 24 2005, 7:56 am
motek mentioned how if someone comes from a happy home they should live nearby to their parents. this is all good provided that the happy home (which might be a great home to live in etc.) does not include parents who might interfere with their children's lives.
a friend of mine comes from a really beautiful home, but after getting married her mother (who at times was pushy and very opinionated...wiht good intention) thought that her son-in-law was also 'hers' - and gave him pushy advice and pressure. this was not negative, but it definitely was UNDESIRABLE as most of you would understand. so my friend and her hubby decided to limit their visits to the family home and instead receive their family in their home...where it's their territory and they can 'make the rules.'
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Feb 25 2005, 3:17 am
I lived very far from my parents for many years, raised the first 2 children without any help (my husband was working 16 hrs a day, and in-laws not near by, in the physical and psychological way!), so I thoroughly enjoy having my parents near us now. they help out a lot, but also weeks can go by that we almost don't meet. just the idea that they are near is great.
but we all do very much cherish our privacy!
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 26 2005, 5:41 pm
No problem with living in the same city as parents as long as you get along, but I think living next door on the same street is sort of too close for comfort. If you want to really live with your parents that you stay so close even while married, why get married in the first place?
Living too close causes a lot of problems with the other spouse who isn't living near his/her parents. You can make rules on visits but who says family will abide?
I live about 15 min walk from my in-laws, but I probably get to see them once a week if even that. I am also glad I don't live too close to my parents, I would have loved it sometimes, but compared with the times I wouldn't have wanted it, it's better this way. Some people are so attached to their parents they are tied there and so find a place next door or a few doors away and I if it's the wife near her family she loves it and sees it as a must and how can it be wrong, but imagine if they lived next door her husband's parents and he kept going off there and being with his mum all the time, we would say he was a mother's boy and see it as a bad thing and the wife would deffinately hate it and it would cause her to hate her in-laws.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 11:34 am
Quote:
If you want to really live with your parents that you stay so close even while married, why get married in the first place?


Confused
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yehudis




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 1:12 pm
Just read this thread. The whole privacy concept is cultural. Having grown up in Ukraine, where we lived all together -- my parents, us two kids, my grandmother, and then, after my grandfather passed away, my other grandmother -- I have to say that the whole idea of privacy was foreign to me when we first came to America. I still have a hard time with it. I don't have very many close friends who are American, because it's hard for me to understand how much privacy Americans need. I tend to be much more open and expect the same in return, which I usually don't get from an American. In my experience, it is only Americans who need so much privacy. Israelis, South Africans, people from South America are also very open.

As far as living close to parents, it really depends on the relationship between parents and children. I have Russian friends who live together or very close to their parents (I mean married people with families), and the parents help out a lot with the children, and it works out just fine.
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ForeverYoung

Guest


 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:49 pm
I think privacy has 2 meaning which got confused -ersonal and physical space.

The ability to keep your personal space to yourself even within tight quarters is an art lost to many people today. I think.
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 28 2005, 9:03 am
[quote="ForeverYoung"]The ability to keep your personal space to yourself even within tight quarters is an art lost to many people today. I think.[/quote]

Yes to that FY ( I do agree a lot with you today, don't I Wink ?)
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