bm in diaper at 4.5

amother

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 8:24 am

My son is four and a half and has been trained to use the toilet for both day and night for a long time. However, he reuses to have a bm on the toilet, only in a diaper. I have tried positive reinforcement, ignoring it and many other methods. I even have him use his diaper in the toilet room for association. Has anyone had this problem before? Any suggestions?

Motek

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 12:10 pm

one expert's advice:

Quote:

A mother writes that she heeded the advice of a certain nationally-known pediatrician (who is also a spokesperson for a manufacturer of disposable diapers) and did not begin toilet training her daughter until the child was 3 years old. Whereas proper timing (between 18 and 24 months) is not the sole or even most important predictor of toilet training success (that being parental attitude), late training is associated with numerous problems.

Sure enough, the child developed one of the most common of said problems, "stool toileting refusal," which is pediatric lingo for selectively refusing to use the toilet for bowel movements. She would sit on her own to urinate, but stubbornly adhered to infantile practice when it came to "number two."

Mom and Dad were at wits' end, especially Mom. She was consumed with anxiety and resentment and guilt and frustration and 'round and 'round she spun, accomplishing absolutely nothing. It is axiomatic that parental frustration, regardless of the issue, spawns micromanagement, and micromanagement is guaranteed to make any problem worse. Indeed, Mom micromanaged and micromanaged, then she'd take a break after which she'd begin micromanaging again.

Here is a rule of thumb: A child will not change her behavior if the behavior causes the child no discomfort. Said another way, a child will not change her behavior because the behavior upsets and inconveniences her parents; rather, the child will change behavior when the behavior in question begins to upset and inconvenience the child.

In this case, when the little girl "pooped" in her pants, Mom became upset and Mom became inconvenienced (and to slightly lesser degree, Dad). The child, on the other hand, was content to walk around all day with a load in her drawers. Mom was not content with it. She wanted these "accidents" to stop. (Actually, at this age, they are not accidents; they are "on purposes.")

Mom's studies eventually led her to the advice of a certain psychological heretic who happens to believe that 99.999 percent of the problems today's parents are experiencing in the area of discipline are due to the truly awful child rearing advice "experts" have been dispensing since the 1960s. Mom arrived at the following conclusion: Since her daughter's "stool toileting refusal" arose because she listened to professional advice, she could probably solve the problem by doing exactly what most professionals would not advise her doing. So, that's what she did.

The next time her daughter had an "on purpose," Mom made her clean up her mess (which she did with much "wailing and gnashing of teeth), then made her spend the rest of the day in her room (which she did with much "wailing and gnashing of teeth"). This happened at one o'clock in the afternoon, mind you. Look at what has happened here: Before, when the little girl pooped in her britches, Mom became upset. Now, when the little girl poops in her britches, Mom sees to it that no one but her little girl becomes upset. Now we're getting somewhere! (But keep in mind that conventional psychological "wisdom" would have it that this sort of old-fashioned punishment for a toilet training problem will make matters worse and cause the child "trauma.")

Mom's testimony: "The next day she got up and I told her the same thing would happen today if she messed in her pants. She looked at me and said, 'I'm all potty-trained now!' and she never messed in her pants again!"

This anecdote validates what I call "The Agony Principle": Parents should not agonize over anything a child does or fails to do if the child is perfectly capable of agonizing over it herself. In this case, Mom had been agonizing, to no avail, for months. The child - fully capable, at age 3, of carrying this monkey on her own back - agonized for seven hours and decided to solve the problem. Needless to say, she is now a much happier child.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Here is a rule of thumb: A child will not change her behavior if the behavior causes the child no discomfort. Said another way, a child will not change her behavior because the behavior upsets and inconveniences her parents; rather, the child will change behavior when the behavior in question begins to upset and inconvenience the child.

100%

my son had a imilar bm issue, but he had a valid reason for sticking to the diaper - he had a few very painful experiences w/ bm.

what I did was a little different - when he would ask me for a diaper fo bm, I stopped giving it to him right away. I said: "you need to wait for me to finish xyz. If you want to go right away, threr is a potty or toilet.

He got over it in a few weeks, B'H

Self cleaning soundslike a good idea, even though I think Mom will have to do some follow-up cleaning afterwards,

but locking in the room is way too much - I would hold that off if self cleaning didn't work after a while.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 12:53 pm

quoting myself from another thread:

Quote:

make the accidents to be her self-imposed punishments.

"Well, we wasted the time on changing you & cleaning up, so no time for desert, b/c it's bed time already"

"no time for the play ground'

"can't go to a friend b/c her mommy doesn't want to cleen up accidents"

"we can't play w/ house b/c its dirty & I don't have time to wash it right now"

etc

Have her participate in clean up (when my daughter gets carried away & has accidents, she's the one who has to undress herself & put all wet things away) She can also dry the floor after you wash it.

Be atter of fact about it, don't be mad at her (or at least pretend to ).

Hopefully, it will become uncomfortable enough for her to change her behavior.

And of course lots of praise for success!!

Hope this helps

hadasa

Thu, Feb 24 2005, 5:41 pm

I had the same problem, and it basically solved itself eventually, I don't remember exactly how. Once he managed to go in the toilet once or twice, he was no longer afraid and was happy about his accomplishment. However, in my case it was a very sensitive child and I was afraid to push him too hard. He did it when he was ready.

A relative of mine, on the other hand, told her son he would no longer have a diaper. When he started going on the floor, she said that cats and dogs also make on the floor, but they go outside to do it, and she sent him to the back yard. Then he actually started going outside every time. Once his mother wasn't home, and he told the babysitter "I have to go outside." She said "Why?" He said "Like the cats and dogs, they go outside when they have to make." The babysitter was rather taken aback, to say the least!!!But eventually his mother convinced him to go on the potty, and once again, once he was successful once, that was basically the end.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 8:01 am

Interesting story.........

Motek

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 9:39 am

Quote:

but locking in the room is way too much

where did it say "locking"?

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 9:47 am

Quote:

made her spend the rest of the day in her room

Motek

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 9:50 am

very different ...

thebestmommy

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 10:13 am

hadasa wrote:

I A relative of mine, on the other hand, told her son he would no longer have a diaper. When he started going on the floor, she said that cats and dogs also make on the floor, but they go outside to do it, and she sent him to the back yard. Then he actually started going outside every time. Once his mother wasn't home, and he told the babysitter "I have to go outside." She said "Why?" He said "Like the cats and dogs, they go outside when they have to make." The babysitter was rather taken aback, to say the least!!!But eventually his mother convinced him to go on the potty, and once again, once he was successful once, that was basically the end.

Does anyone else think that this story is a bit strange?!?! To tell the kid to go outside just like the cats and dogs? Sounds VERY weird to me. I would never do that to my kid. Poor kid!! Sad

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Feb 25 2005, 10:24 am

motek, result is the same

Rivka

Sat, Feb 26 2005, 5:28 pm

I think the idea of a kid only doing something when it causes them discomfort is very true, which is how you know from the begining if they are ready to toilet train as it is uncomfortable for them to be in dirty nappy.
I like that idea of kid having to clean up after themself. The time out thing should be if the cleaning up thing doesn't work.
But what about kids who still wet the bed? Apparently it is usually kids who are having problems at home or school that tend to wet their beds at an older age.

Tefila

Sat, Feb 26 2005, 10:18 pm

Thebestmommy

Quote:

Does anyone else think that this story is a bit strange?!?! To tell the kid to go outside just like the cats and dogs? Sounds VERY weird to me. I would never do that to my kid. Poor kid!!

Atchually I totaly agree w/h you and think it's disgusting to compare a child to an animal. What message is the parent getting across you act that way your treated that way.... Sorry something seriously wrong!!!

hadasa

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 2:37 am

I wouldn't do it either, I just thought it was an interesting story. I wouldn't necessarily judge the mother either - from the way the person who told me the story describes the kid, he's pretty unusual, and this approach may have been suitable for him.

With my child, I felt it was a psychological problem, he was afraid to go to the toilet, and I felt he needed support and encouragement, not scolding and punishment.

Rivka wrote:

But what about kids who still wet the bed? Apparently it is usually kids who are having problems at home or school that tend to wet their beds at an older age.

This may be true in some cases, but many kids just have an immature bladder, which does not send signals strong enough to wake them up. That's why bedwetting tends to run in families. Also, if a child doesn't get enough sleep, he is more likely to sleep too deeply to control himself.

hisorerus

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:55 am

Yeah, a couple of my siblings had the bedwetting problem. A solution that ended up working for one until his body got developed enough was not to drink close to (2 hours before) bedtime. Other than that, the "GoodNites" are a sensible way of dealing with it, possibly in conjunction with other solutions.

Some people advocate waking the child every 2 hours and sending them to the bathroom; they claim it helps them wake themselves if they need to go.

Tefila

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 11:20 am

Even though they all basically trained early for day time. A couple of my boys were trained night time at 5yrs and a couple took them much longer till 8yrs at night.
They were just incharge of changing their wet linens and putting stuff in the laundry and round this age they stopped b"h.
I don't think children do it purposely and should be educated w/h both understanding and kindness coz they feel just as bad!

Rivka

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 12:53 pm

worst thing to do is to make a big deal out of bed-wetting, coz that just makes it worse. Kids don't want to bed-wet, it's embarassing especially when they are 5+ coz they go to school and if they want to stay at a friend;s house.
I have my son to look forward to toilet training soon, can't wait!!! Confused

imaamy

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 3:44 pm

Our daughter had the bedwetting problem. She didn't drink much at dinner, nothing after. Still she just didn't notice the urge while she was sleeping. She often wouldn't wake up until her normal time even though she was soaked. The doctor said waking them during the night is not helpful. If it still occurs at age 6 there is medication. B"h she is now staying dry without medicine. Also there are alarm systems that wake the child when the bed starts to get wet. Not sure how much they help, we didn't try any of them.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:06 pm

Quote:

ome people advocate waking the child every 2 hours and sending them to the bathroom; they claim it helps them wake themselves if they need to go.

probably b/c the child never has a chance to fall into a deep sleep,
which is not good either.

there is a system of alarms -
time when the person wets himself for a week or so, & set alarm for 10-15 min b4 that.
Gradually move the waking time to the morning.

Body is trained to 'make' when alarm goes off & waits for the signal.

If somebody needs more info for practical purposes, pls feel free to pm me

hadasa

Mon, Feb 28 2005, 7:18 pm

When are the parents supposed to sleep, if they're waking the child up every two hours, or sitting around timing when he wets?

As for the alarms, well, I was a bedwetter (enough years have passed for me not to be embarrassed to admit it Wink

) and one of my childhood memories is the alarm beeping and flashing away on my wrist, and both my parents rushing from their bedroom to shake me awake, while I was sleeping soundly through it all. Most of my kids are also wetters, one of them had problems with control by day, too. The doctor I went to said just to wait. The day problems ended at 8 years old, and his nights are now dry, except for when he's really overtired. (I had occassional night accidents till about fourteen, too.)

BTW, it didn't prevent my son from going to camp. I packed his DryNites in an opaque bag and gave him a bunch of bags to wrap them up to throw away.