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______ ______-alleged molestor
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:19 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Merrymom wrote:
sarahd wrote:
I don't think anyone here claimed mesira, blamed any victims, denied that something horrible may have gone on here or tried to protect any accused molesters. However, I didn't see (maybe I missed it) anything on any of these threads that would be helpful to either the victims or anyone trying to apprehend the perpetrator.


You're talking about the past, how about future victims cv"?

I don't think it would be helpful to future victims to know that if they complain, their names will be publicly revealed and their tragedy will be discussed online by random strangers.


As bad as I feel for the past victims, I care more that these monstors are put away and that they should never be able to do this again. I think most victims are willing to pay that price actually as in that link from Pinny Taub. They don't want to see it happen to anyone else and so they endure the shame which is sad but really the only way to stop it.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:21 pm
Merrymom wrote:
sarahd wrote:
I don't think anyone here claimed mesira, blamed any victims, denied that something horrible may have gone on here or tried to protect any accused molesters. However, I didn't see (maybe I missed it) anything on any of these threads that would be helpful to either the victims or anyone trying to apprehend the perpetrator.


You're talking about the past, how about future victims cv"?


Merrymom, can I turn it about and ask you what good you think it will do to talk about whether or not we think he is guilty and why?
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:31 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
Merrymom wrote:
sarahd wrote:
I don't think anyone here claimed mesira, blamed any victims, denied that something horrible may have gone on here or tried to protect any accused molesters. However, I didn't see (maybe I missed it) anything on any of these threads that would be helpful to either the victims or anyone trying to apprehend the perpetrator.


You're talking about the past, how about future victims cv"?


Merrymom, can I turn it about and ask you what good you think it will do to talk about whether or not we think he is guilty and why?


I don't think we should discuss whether he's guilty or not, we should assume that he until proven otherwise. With other crimes I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. With s exual crimes, the risk is so great that everyone needs to know to keep away from someone accused or a s ex crime.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:37 pm
But you cannot accept is as absolute truth. What does that mean? It means you take precaution.

All that needs to be said is ____ is accused of ____, beware.

Not going on and on how monstrous the family is and how it's despicable and assuming the worst did happen.
You don't assume anything or take it as truth; you just take proper precautions.

There is little harm, and much to gain by this method.

By yours, there is much harm, and little to gain.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:38 pm
Merrymom wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
Merrymom wrote:
sarahd wrote:
I don't think anyone here claimed mesira, blamed any victims, denied that something horrible may have gone on here or tried to protect any accused molesters. However, I didn't see (maybe I missed it) anything on any of these threads that would be helpful to either the victims or anyone trying to apprehend the perpetrator.


You're talking about the past, how about future victims cv"?


Merrymom, can I turn it about and ask you what good you think it will do to talk about whether or not we think he is guilty and why?


I don't think we should discuss whether he's guilty or not, we should assume that he until proven otherwise. With other crimes I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. With s exual crimes, the risk is so great that everyone needs to know to keep away from someone accused or a s ex crime.


It makes sense in terms of not trusting him with your children, just as it makes sense if someone is accused of rape or murder or what have you, your trust level goes down. But we aren't talking about having him babysit. We are talking about calling him a rapist before he has been found guilty.

What you think in your head no one but G-d knows. But many people in these threads have spoken about him as if he and his sons WERE guilty.

That doesn't mean we assume the daughter lied or the co-worker lied. It means assuming we don't know.

Schrödinger's cat: until the box is opened it is alive and dead.
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:49 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
But you cannot accept is as absolute truth. What does that mean? It means you take precaution.

All that needs to be said is ____ is accused of ____, beware.

Not going on and on how monstrous the family is and how it's despicable and assuming the worst did happen.
You don't assume anything or take it as truth; you just take proper precautions.

There is little harm, and much to gain by this method.

By yours, there is much harm, and little to gain.


You want to downplay what he allegedly did. I don't think that's a good idea. When people feel doubt then they let their guard down and nobody should have their guard down around him or the sons or the mother as a matter of a fact. It's unfortunate that people will be talking about the daughters but that's the father's fault, not everyone else's.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:53 pm
See, there you go again assuming he's guilty.

I'm not downplaying anything since we don't know anything other than that he is accused!
All I'm saying is if you want something to be toeles, you tell them as such. X is accused of Y and if you have any connection to X, be on your guard. That's the formula for taking precaution when you cannot accept something as absolute truth.
That doesn't mean Y < Z. It means Y is what he is accused of, what you have to be on guard about, and anything beyond that is pure speculation. L"H, definitely. Motzei Shem Ra, maybe, we don't know.

There is absolutely no advantage in going about smearing someone with no facts. It is NOT protecting anyone. Telling someone matter of factly with the truth (the truth being that X is accused of Y) goes a lot farther than emotional rants about things we don't know about.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 1:58 pm
sarahd wrote:
I don't think anyone here claimed mesira, blamed any victims, denied that something horrible may have gone on here or tried to protect any accused molesters. However, I didn't see (maybe I missed it) anything on any of these threads that would be helpful to either the victims or anyone trying to apprehend the perpetrator.


Nah, you missed it because you are not a victim. Period.

HindaRochel, I feel like vomitting over your posts already in this thread and the other. Sorry, it's too hurtful.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:02 pm
Amother, I'm sorry you are hurt and were hurt. But determining someone is guilty of a crime before they have come to trial does NOTHING to prevent child abuse or rape.

We are not defending the man. We are not defending the sons. We are not castigating the daughter or the coworker. We are not calling them liars. We are being neutral, because facts, and not emotions, is more likely to bring truth out.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:04 pm
Amother, how do you know if someone is a victim or not?
I don't think all victims react in the same way.
Wasn't there someone on this or the other thread that davka wanted anonymity and the abuser's name not to be publicized?
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:13 pm
HY and HR, kol hakavod for your posts. It's a lonely job defending halacha against the raging mobs.

Amother above me, I am sorry for your suffering and I would certainly never judge you on your comments.
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auntie_em




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:17 pm
Amother, I think that was unduly harsh.

I am trying to work through the differences that have been brought up here.
I am seeing more now what HR and HY are trying to say. They are not advocating saying nothing,
as far as I can tell. They are saying, Warn people, with the names, but then leave it.

I have thought about it, and there is nothing served by the rounds of "I know him and.."
Everyone is shocked this would happen in a frum home (or frankly any home) and I think people
feel the need to express that shock.

I am not 100% sure I agree, though. I do (sort of) agree we cannot 'assume" someone is guilty.
But what should we do then, when they act guilty? When there are essentially confessions?
How far do we have to bend to stay neutral?

And I am really struggling now because I do not see this same "effort" at protecting the
alleged victims? It is not ok, apparently, to discuss the guilty-looking actions and behaviors of the
accused.

But it is still no problem to post publically that you (general you) think the alleged victims are liars.
It has happened again on the 'other' thread, the one with the name.

I would feel much more confident about this whole thing if the same efforts and energy would be extended
towards the alleged victims.

(Now, I am going for a walk..outside. I need to regain some perspective)
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:21 pm
Of course every victim has a different experience and react differently. But, one victim can sense another...

It's not lonely to defend 'halacha'. I see enough of that. It's lonley to defend victims and to be one.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:22 pm
auntie_em wrote:

But it is still no problem to post publically that you (general you) think the alleged victims are liars.
It has happened again on the 'other' thread, the one with the name.

I would feel much more confident about this whole thing if the same efforts and energy would be extended
towards the alleged victims.

(Now, I am going for a walk..outside. I need to regain some perspective)


Absolutely, it is a problem. That's why I say stay neutral. I don't advocate anyone saying "the daughter lied, or the coworker lied." I don't know (and I hate to hypothesize as it could sound like I'm condemning someone.)
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:30 pm
amother wrote:
Of course every victim has a different experience and react differently. But, one victim can sense another...

It's not lonely to defend 'halacha'. I see enough of that. It's lonley to defend victims and to be one.


amother I'm sorry for your pain. But we are not defending the man or his sons. Why do you feel the daughters are being attacked by me specifically that you feel I am being hurtful to you and to them? I have carefully stayed away from saying ANYTHING about the veracity of the daughters OR the coworker.

These aren't people that, to the best of my knowledge, you know, we haven't even heard or read what they said. So how can we sense anything about them?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:30 pm
auntie_em wrote:
Amother, I think that was unduly harsh.

I am trying to work through the differences that have been brought up here.
I am seeing more now what HR and HY are trying to say. They are not advocating saying nothing,
as far as I can tell. They are saying, Warn people, with the names, but then leave it.

I have thought about it, and there is nothing served by the rounds of "I know him and.."
Everyone is shocked this would happen in a frum home (or frankly any home) and I think people
feel the need to express that shock.

I am not 100% sure I agree, though. I do (sort of) agree we cannot 'assume" someone is guilty.
But what should we do then, when they act guilty? When there are essentially confessions?
How far do we have to bend to stay neutral?

And I am really struggling now because I do not see this same "effort" at protecting the
alleged victims? It is not ok, apparently, to discuss the guilty-looking actions and behaviors of the
accused.

But it is still no problem to post publically that you (general you) think the alleged victims are liars.
It has happened again on the 'other' thread, the one with the name.

I would feel much more confident about this whole thing if the same efforts and energy would be extended
towards the alleged victims.

(Now, I am going for a walk..outside. I need to regain some perspective)


I was too harsh? Sorry. But I don't feel heard. The rest of your post brought me to tears and honestly I don't cry anymore about these things. I understand the posters very well that they were trying to be neutral, but as you said too much effort is wasted on defending molesters and no one is hearing the cries of the victims. How many are on drugs, suicidal, suffering from disorders, off the derech and so on and so forth? Oh and one thing no one ever mentioned, PREGNANT? Aw, I am being too harsh.
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auntie_em




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:30 pm
Amother Hug

I agree with you also. I don't have an answer. I wish so badly that I did.

There needs to be as much, if not more, efforts put into supporting people who come forward.
This garbage of speculating on their motives, or truthfulness, or any other aspect is just that.
Despicable.

I know from a previous exchange with HR she does not support that.
I didn't think anyone would, but I have been proven wrong too many times now.

I am tearing myself away from this laptop for now. If I do not, my head will explode from thinking.
But amother, I did not want to leave you without a response.

People do care, and people are trying to help what seems like an epidemic.

Edit to add- Same amother? When I say unduly harsh, it came across that way too me. Maybe I really meant "kinda gross"? But I don't think HR and HY are advocating what we all know happens far too often!
Slamming the victims, and protecting the accused. I do not mean to minimise your feelings, though. And uhmm..if you felt like vomiting, who am I to say?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:51 pm
I am going to break away from the laptop now too. /Exhaling deeply/. Another victim pm me when the other thread was going on with a vomiting emoticon and saying she wants to scream. I am not the only one. HR, I have no koach to answer you now. I know, I know you are not trying to defend molesters and trying to stay neutral; however, you are working too hard to do that.
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detroitmom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 2:52 pm
Um, why is everyone soooo concerned about Lashon Hara when what we're discussing is literally a yaharog v'al yaavor. Incest is giluy arayos in case anyone forgot. Why are people so concerned about tznius this and tznius that to the extent where you aren't considered frum if you wear a red sweater but they are concerned about protecting someone who had s@x with his own daughter!! How tznius is molesting someone?

Aaargh, where are people's priorities? By publicizing this perp's name we are showing that even if they seem "nicey nice" and come from such a great family they can still do stuff like this. Take away the stigma and shame from the victims and put it where it squarely on the perpetrator's shoulders where it belongs.

And no "innocent until proven guilty". Because the fact that he fled proves his guilt beyond a doubt.

By the way, to the amother who was molested by her father: I'm so sorry. What a horrible thing to go through. I can't even imagine what you suffered. May you only know good things in your life from this time on.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 08 2010, 3:00 pm
detroitmom wrote:
Um, why is everyone soooo concerned about Lashon Hara when what we're discussing is literally a yaharog v'al yaavor. Incest is giluy arayos in case anyone forgot. Why are people so concerned about tznius this and tznius that to the extent where you aren't considered frum if you wear a red sweater but they are concerned about protecting someone who had s@x with his own daughter!! How tznius is molesting someone?

Aaargh, where are people's priorities? By publicizing this perp's name we are showing that even if they seem "nicey nice" and come from such a great family they can still do stuff like this. Take away the stigma and shame from the victims and put it where it squarely on the perpetrator's shoulders where it belongs.

And no "innocent until proven guilty". Because the fact that he fled proves his guilt beyond a doubt.


There, someone finally said it.
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