______ ______-alleged molestor

HindaRochel

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 3:05 pm

amother wrote:

I am going to break away from the laptop now too. /Exhaling deeply/. Another victim pm me when the other thread was going on with a vomiting emoticon and saying she wants to scream. I am not the only one. HR, I have no koach to answer you now. I know, I know you are not trying to defend molesters and trying to stay neutral; however, you are working too hard to do that.

I am working hard to do that BECAUSE I want monsters to go to jail. That is the very reason I want to wait till evidence is in. Because IMHO the best way to have the guilty convicted is by having facts convict them.

Otherwise, five years down the line, they end up going free on technicalities.

amother

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 3:10 pm

amother wrote:

detroitmom wrote:

Um, why is everyone soooo concerned about Lashon Hara when what we're discussing is literally a yaharog v'al yaavor. Incest is giluy arayos in case anyone forgot. Why are people so concerned about tznius this and tznius that to the extent where you aren't considered frum if you wear a red sweater but they are concerned about protecting someone who had s@x with his own daughter!! How tznius is molesting someone?

Aaargh, where are people's priorities? By publicizing this perp's name we are showing that even if they seem "nicey nice" and come from such a great family they can still do stuff like this. Take away the stigma and shame from the victims and put it where it squarely on the perpetrator's shoulders where it belongs.

And no "innocent until proven guilty". Because the fact that he fled proves his guilt beyond a doubt.

There, someone finally said it.

Actually, I should highlight your whole post. Thats exactly why we have so many of our children losing their faith. The only ones who are ready to face their abusers in the courtroom are the ones who have nothing to lose anymore. If you want to stay religious you need to be silent.

I don't want any hugs, it means nothing to me. Action does.

amother

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 3:17 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

amother wrote:

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry now. I will be DLKZ you because you are clueless. Thank Hashem every day you are not a victim. Staying neutral will NOT get the facts in!

detroitmom

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 3:26 pm

[quote="amotherI don't want any hugs, it means nothing to me. Action does.[/quote]

If it was within my power to prevent children from being abused I'd do whatever it took. What kind of action would you be talking about? I honestly want to know because I would like to do something.

As for what would I do if this happened to my kids? If c"v this was my husband? (my husband is an absolutely perfect father who I love dearly but this is hypothetical) His behind would be in jail. And it wouldn't take me twenty years to figure that out either.

ora_43

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 4:00 pm

Merrymom wrote:

As bad as I feel for the past victims, I care more that these monstors are put away and that they should never be able to do this again. I think most victims are willing to pay that price actually as in that link from Pinny Taub. They don't want to see it happen to anyone else and so they endure the shame which is sad but really the only way to stop it.

Why would that be the only way? As I said on the other thread, here in Israel it's illegal to reveal a victim's identity, even if that means concealing the attacker's identity. The attacker still goes to jail! It's not like the only options are presenting every detail of the case or doing nothing.

Another option would be to publish the attacker's identity, but not give details of the crime. Again, the attacker still goes to jail.

I don't think you can rely on every victim being willing to undergo the kind of scrutiny people are putting on the case on this site. In a case like this protecting past victims is protecting future victims as well - by protecting past victims' privacy, you make people more likely to come forward, which means more - not fewer - attackers are ultimately caught.

HindaRochel

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 10:49 pm

amother wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

amother wrote:

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry now. I will be DLKZ you because you are clueless. Thank Hashem every day you are not a victim. Staying neutral will NOT get the facts in!

You have no idea what I am. Period.

HindaRochel

Wed, Dec 08 2010, 10:54 pm

AND FOR THE RECORD:

I do know that nice aidel people can abuse.
I do know it happens in the nicest families.
I worked in the abuse prevention movement. That is why I want to stay neutral. I have no connection to anyone else in the case and speculation doesn't do anyone any good.

If I were talking with someone who was making an accusation I would be warm, open and listening to them, as well as working hard to bring their case to justice. I would help them get the therapy they need to get control of the issue, and to get on with their lives. I would also stand by them and be their advocate in court.

If a mother brought me evidence that her child was being abused and I felt it was strong enough I would help them in anyway possible including illegal methods (short of killing.) I have done so in the past.

But as a fourth party, someone who isn't there to hear either side, I would still work to bring the case to justice; but that to me is to make certain the truth comes out in a court of law. That means the accused must be brought to trial. That means the accuser is not browbeaten or question improperly. That means the press does not print anything about either party till the case has finished, because wild hypothesizing can destroy an otherwise good case.
_________________

detroitmom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 3:30 am

I know this thread is basically dead but I have a point to make.

Why is everyone so indignant about lashon hara for molesters??? Half the time we all have to post anonymously because a lot of people of the Jewish community in general are judgemental and will gossip about you and not let your kids play with their kids and eventually your children will have shidduchim issues etc...I mean if a girl is seen talking to a boy she will be made the talk of the town but molestation is hushed up? Guess what everyone. Molestation is a huge breach of tznius, and that should be obvious to anyone.

Again: where are everyone's priorities?

I think those of you who are so worried about LH are more concerned about Jews looking bad frankly, not actual halacha.

/vent off

AlwaysGrateful

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 10:03 am

detroitmom wrote:

I think those of you who are so worried about LH are more concerned about Jews looking bad frankly, not actual halacha.

Really? Maybe some are. I think that many are not. I think that many who are more removed from the situation can see it more clearly and realize that it most likely IS loshon hara and should not be discussed.

I have no problem with someone saying "There are Jews that are molesters!" or even talking about a Jew who is a molester. But giving names without adequate proof, especially about a case that has not been decided on yet? That's not "making Jews look bad," that's just about venting. And if it's not the type of venting that's allowed halachically, it's L"H. Period.

detroitmom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 10:17 am

The truth is Hashem Yaazor and Always Grateful, that we can never truly know anything. But this is pretty much obvious. You flee the country and your son turns himself in you're 99% likely to be guilty.

What is more of a priority? Making people aware of monsters like this and keeping them alert to danger or a tiny minute chance of possibly speaking Lashon Hara? Which is more important?

It's perfectly fine to speak ill of a rasha and I think this man and his sons fit the category quite nicely.

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 2:21 pm

ora_43 wrote:

amother, what is it, practically speaking, that you think should be done? You want action - what action? You say that staying neutral until a verdict is in is unhelpful - so what is helpful? Assuming that we're not personally involved in the case.

WADR, it's not good to make assumptions about who has or hasn't been a victim of s-xual abuse. That can end up hurting people.

detroitmom wrote:

What kind of action would you be talking about? I honestly want to know because I would like to do something. .

What is helpful????? dicuss it, discuss it, discuss.

Only when we can talk about it freely, can the victims realize that they are victims and will not be ashamed to let someone know about the horrible things they went through.
Whe the victims realize that they are not at fault, perhaps this cycle can stop.
I asked my DH, to watch the Pinny Taub video and am requesting that all my older kids who have internet to watch it too. It is a great starting point for discussion.

Not to sound like a broken record, but dicuss it, discuss it, discuss.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:34 am

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

detroitmom wrote:

I think those of you who are so worried about LH are more concerned about Jews looking bad frankly, not actual halacha.

I think the ones who are removed are just that.

Flower

mammele26

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:44 am

amother wrote:

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

detroitmom wrote:

I think those of you who are so worried about LH are more concerned about Jews looking bad frankly, not actual halacha.

I think the ones who are removed are just that.

Flower

ora_43

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:29 am

smilingmom wrote:

So the more I talk about child molestation, the better things will be? If I talk about it 24/7, my kids will be most protected?

Sorry, but this is absurd. Again - I'm from a community where molestation is discussed openly, and where everyone is very clear that it's not the fault of the victim. It is not a solution. It is a good start, but the problem is still very much there.

Telling victims "it's OK don't be ashamed" does not make victims be not ashamed. The shame is a result of the crime in and of itself, community reaction can exacerbate it or not, but can't make it disappear.

And it's absurd to tell me this when I ask "what is helpful," since you're telling me something I've grown up with already. If a grown person who is not an imbecile asks "what should I do to help fight the problem of molestation," you can assume that "don't blame the victim" will not be new advice.

ora_43

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 5:49 am

OK thinking about it some more..

I would recommend the opposite of what some people here are saying. I don't think that the more we talk about abuse, the more we'll be protected. I think that we need to talk about it to a certain extent - enough to educate our kids and ourselves - and then stop, because publicizing abuse all the time inflates fears too much, to the point where adults are afraid to let their kids have a normal childhood, and kids are terrified of everything.

I think that if someone in the Cohen family reports that her brother abused her (for example), the very last thing we should do is talk about OMG did you hear about the Cohen family and it's so awful and oh look there's that Cohen girl did you know her brother is in jail for molesting her (Merrymom and smilingmom and whoever else is advocating "discuss everything" approach or defending the other thread where people were doing exactly this) or to say that we are never going to let our kids be around the rest of the Cohen family or let our adult kids marry into that family (smilingmom approach as stated on other threads).

I think a better approach would be to not talk about the Cohen family at all, beyond warning neighbors if the Cohen brother convicted of molestation is released "just so you know, he was convicted of a s-x crime involving a child." Nothing else. No talking about that specific case (unless to give testimony or speak to a member of the Cohen family), no isolating the family by treating all the other male members as probable s-x offenders, or by putting all the children, victims included, on a shidduch blacklist. No isolating the family at all. Show current and (chv"s) future victims that if they report what happened to them, they and their family will still be a valued part of the community, not the subject of gossip and fear.

And if someone feels that their community is not educated about abuse, so make up a fictional Shmohen family and talk about them instead, leave the real life families alone unless the people involved themselves decide to come forward a la Pinny Taub.

I think the approach that involves talking about families that are suffering this, or treating them as dangerous, is harmful. But am I criticizing the people who advocate that approach as not caring enough about victims? No, because that would be wrong and unhelpful. Just saying.