Abused Victim Shares His Story, learn the signs of abuse!

Merrymom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 12:31 pm

ora_43 wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Merrymom, if I'm understanding you correctly, everyone in a case of child abuse, whether the accused is ever brought to trial or not, whether the accused is ever found guilty or not, everyone loses their rights to privacy and one can talk about them, at least in terms of the abuse, freely, without guilt, without concerns about how it impacts on the victims themselves.

I disagree with you vehemently on subjugating victims to what to me would be more abuse in t his manner.

People keep saying "but we have to know who the molesters are" which is totally missing the point. Nobody has said that we shouldn't say the names of people who have been convicted of s-x crimes.

Merrymom wrote:

for those of you that are supposedly so worried about the victims, they themselves at some point realize the only way to put these people away is to stop being anonymous.

Nice personal attack with the "supposedly."

The laws that forbid revealing enough about a case to reveal a victim's identity were not created by me, they were created with help from professionals. They were designed to protect victims and to increase reporting of crimes.

And after checking, it seems to me that this is the law in America and Britain as well as in Israel.

You keep arguing that victims are fine with having their identities revealed and realize it's necessary. And yet, the forum on this site for victims of molestation is separate and completely anonymous - ever wonder why that is? The vast majority of assault victims do not choose to waive their anonymity in the media - every wonder why that is?

Just because somebody wants the abuser's name publicized doesn't mean they want you or any other "Imamother commentator" joining in their discussions, hence the private forum. It is not because they don't want people to know what happened to them, they do realize that to protect the community they need to lose their anonymity. If the rest of the community didn't shun them and stick up for suspected molestors maybe they wouldn't have to feel ashamed to come forward. As for keeping victims names secret legally, that's a very different situation, they don't need every nutcase calling them up to harass them or stalk them further.

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 1:31 pm

BestMomBrooklyn wrote:

Currently, in Brooklyn, if you report abuse, you lose your children to their abuser. That is, if it's their father.

FIRST HAND PROOF!

I am actually hosting a support group, for women who lost their children to this horrific system. PM me privately.

With all due respect, can you please clarify.

Did you mean to say that "if a parent wrongfully accuses a spouseof abusing a child, (usually during the course of divorce litigation). And the court finds out that the accusations were fabricated by that parent, who is supposed to protect the child and instead is subjugating to the child to needless physical and mental exams, then that parent will lose custody"

Merrymom

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 2:02 pm

auntie_em wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I would definitely be telling them that anything covered by a bathing suit can not be touched by anyone other than a doctor if necessary. And if something happens, tell you. They won't be in trouble.

This is a good place to start with little ones. Anything covered by your bathing suit is private, and they can only see or touch those parts if mommy is with you or knows about it. I do not make exceptions, including doctors.

I hope you don't phrase it this way as kids can take things quite literally so if they're not actually wearing a bathing suit they might not think to react in any way.

Stayci

Fri, Dec 10 2010, 3:26 pm

I would like to humbly suggest being that is seems like the victims are either scared of their abusers or feel like they have to protect them that every yeshiva and school should hire a person to speak to the children. This person should allay the fears of getting hurt by the abusers if they tell on them, the person should promise to protect them no matter what the abuser threatens and should explain to them that these people although pretend to be nice and care, they are not! I can think of a million different ways to explain to boys without 'scaring' them or 'scarring' them.

Schools should be obligated to speak of it like they do about fire drills.

HindaRochel

Sat, Dec 11 2010, 11:03 am

smilingmom wrote:

BestMomBrooklyn wrote:

No, she actually means that some mothers, and not just in Brooklyn, have asserted abuse and have brought in what evidence they could, but that they have lost custody. Family court is not a well run court in many cases, imho. Judges get personal. I think all accusations of child abuse should be brought to regular court as should all accusations of PAS.

Both can and are misused.

smilingmom

Sat, Dec 11 2010, 6:13 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

smilingmom wrote:

BestMomBrooklyn wrote:

what evidence they could That is the problem, the trial courts have looked at the "evidence" and found it false. Brininging false accusations and sujecting kids to needless exams is a crime.

regular court I do not know what you mean by 'regular court'. In NYS, including Brooklyn, every Judge, both in supreme, family, or criminal court has the same qualifications. A finding in those three trial court gets appealed to the appelate term or appelate division.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "PAS"?

chatz

Sat, Dec 11 2010, 7:57 pm

OP, thanks for posting the links. I watched the Pinny Taub video and am happy that I did so.

Chayalle - thanks for the clear tips.

The scariest thing about all this is that there is no foolproof method of protecting our kids... We can definitely do what we can and what was mentioned and raise awareness, but Shaking

I'm just curious about all this talk of rodef, LH not applying, etc. - I agree in general, but specifically, when does this start? At which point do you say - ok, this person is a molester and we must spread the word? I'm asking specifically because I know someone who was reported (anonymously, of course) to Child Protecting Services that he was abusing his kids. CPS did a thorough investigation and cleared him of all charges. This was a false accusation due to some messy politics this guy was involved in.

So, say someone plasters the neighborhood with accusations about a certain person (I know someone who this happened to, too). Should we believe it? Should we spread it? If it's never brought to the police and never properly investigated, shouldn't it be LH?

Merrymom

Sat, Dec 11 2010, 9:48 pm

chatz wrote:

If you have real reason to believe that it is true or this person is left alone with children then yes, people have to protect themselves. Once an accusation is out there we err on the side of protecting children, not the adult.

ora_43

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 8:24 am

Merrymom wrote:

You have yet to explain why victims have to give up their own anonymity to protect the community. If the perpetrator is convicted, and that is made public, how will it help to know who exactly was attacked?

Nobody on this site has given up their anonymity the way you seem to think the victims recently discussed on here have the obligation to do. (which I think is fine, ftr, but it does seem to contradict your claims)

Quote:

If the rest of the community didn't shun them and stick up for suspected molestors maybe they wouldn't have to feel ashamed to come forward. As for keeping victims names secret legally, that's a very different situation, they don't need every nutcase calling them up to harass them or stalk them further.

I think you must have misunderstood what I meant by the law requiring that names be kept secret. That law means that a report like we had on here - where a name is given and people give details of the alleged crimes such that one could figure out who the victim is - is illegal. Not "secret legally" like "technically secret but you can go ahead and say whatever you want" but "legally a secret" like "if you publish anything that could reveal a victim's identity, whether in a news report or online or wherever else, that is a crime."

Otherwise you are basically creating a situation where in order to come forward, a victim has to be prepared for his or her private life to be made very public. And, your unproven claims to the contrary aside, fewer people would be willing to do that than are willing to file a complaint that only the police and courts need to know about.

I think it's funny that you can see why a victim should be protected from nutcases, but are fine with a thread on here naming specific people as victims. Once you've discussed a case on a website with thousands of members from around the world, that can be viewed by anyone with an internet connection, you've done about as much as it's possible to do to make sure that person won't be protected from nutcases.

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:43 am

amother wrote:

One of my sons came home from camp telling me a weird story about how an adult head counselor had tried to engage him in a discussion about [filth], how "it's ok to talk about it, everyone does it", asked him other questions (like asking him to describe how he touches himself) that made my son very uncomfortable. Thank G-d my son felt comfortable speaking to me about it. I recognized the "grooming" aspect of it that Mr. Taub speaks of and went to speak with a rav and a social worker about it. Know what he told me? Don't bother, you'll never shut him down, he's too powerful and everyone knows that the administration of that camp is corrupt, liars, etc. Well I sure didn't! It's a camp associated with a respected yeshiva and plenty of people send their boys there, no one seems the wiser. The story is much more involved than this, but really, what can you do? There is no oversight, there is nothing I can really pin on the guy. Really, what DO you do? And if I told you who this guy and the head of the camp (anther sicko) are, most of you would recognize the name as he's a well-known speaker/author. What kind of world do we live in?

I know who you're talking about. A close friend of mine almost married into that family! Thank G-d it didn't pan out. Don't worry the guy who hurt your son is in jail now for a long time, I googled it and found out.

HindaRochel

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:57 am

[quote="smilingmom"]

Quote:

what evidence they could That is the problem, the trial courts have looked at the "evidence" and found it false. Brininging false accusations and sujecting kids to needless exams is a crime.

Actually this is kind of naive. All molestation isn't rape, and there aren't always signs. I know of a case where the child was subjected by the courts to five assessors, four stating that the child was abused. The court only accepted the fifth, where the assessor stated the abuse didn't happen.

In another case a man had assaulted his step-daughter. This was not considered strong enough evidence that he wouldn't make a good custodial parent or that he could be guilty of abusing his daughter.

Courts are prejudiced, and family court is closed to the public, at least in some areas and before a single judge in many cases. The judge wants to dismiss evidence he does.

MOREOVER once the judge has determined abuse didn't take place it is a quick and easy step to take, as you have done, to state the person just made it up, instead of:

1)was mistaken.
2)was correct but unable to prove the charges.

And do you honestly think that every case has such cut and dried evidence that one can go to court and perfectly prove one's accusation? That no one guilty ever goes free and no one innocent is ever jailed?

MOREOVER lack of ability to PROVE an accusation is not equivalent to bringing a false charge. To bring a false charge one must show that the person deliberately accused the other party knowing the charges were false. How do you prove a conversation that came up suddenly where the child said something startling? Unless you tape your child continuously this is often how the knowledge is first raised.

Other times, you like the "signs of abuse" a child displays "signs of abuse" in behavior. But there are no physical signs such as scars or pictures.

Quote:

regular court I do not know what you mean by 'regular court'. In NYS, including Brooklyn, every Judge, both in supreme, family, or criminal court has the same qualifications. A finding in those three trial court gets appealed to the appelate term or appelate division.

Criminal court. I think all relations abuse charges and false accusation charges should be brought up in criminal court. One then goes before a panel of jurist.

Quote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "PAS"?

Parental Alienation Syndrome.
A charge leveled by more frequently by dads at moms. Often because a child just doesn't want to go to daddy. Very easy charge to levy.

HindaRochel

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 12:18 pm

Good places to start your research smilingmom.

http://www.courageouskids.net/

http://www.pdf-finder.com/HOW-......html

http://www.leadershipcouncil.o......html

Just an excerpt:

Quote:

The authors examined 214 allegations of s-xual abuse in divorce cases that were evaluated by a multidisciplinary team at a university-based clinic. 72.6% were determined likely, 20% unlikely, and 7.4% uncertain. The temporal relationship between allegations and divorce were analyzed and results revealed that in cases where CSA was judged to be likely or uncertain, in 18% of these cases divorce followed discovery of s-xual abuse, in 32% cases discovery of s-xual abuse followed divorce, in 34% of cases s-xual abuse followed divorce, and 16% of allegations were found to be unrelated to divorce. Of the 20% of cases that were judged to be false or possibly false cases, only approximately a quarter (n = 10) were determined to have been consciously made. The remainder were classified as misinterpretations.

Faller and DeVoe found that 40 concerned parents experienced negative sanctions associated with raising the issue of s-xual abuse. These sanctions included being jailed, losing custody to the alleged offender, a relative, or foster case, limitation or loss of visitation, admonitions not to report alleged abuse again to the court, Protective Services or the police, and prohibitions against taking the child to a physician or therapist because of concerns about s-xual abuse in the future. None of the parents experiencing these sanctions were ones who were judged to have made calculated false allegations. In fact, sanctioned cases tended to score higher on a composite scale of likelihood of s-xual abuse, and were more likely to have medical evidence than cases without sanctions.

More places to research:
http://www.protectiveparents.c......html

smilingmom

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 1:11 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

smilingmom wrote:

Criminal court. I think all relations abuse charges and false accusation charges should be brought up in criminal court. One then goes before a panel of jurist.

I will have to review the links you provided before I comment on the rest of your post. But am I correct to assume that you want every abuse case to be tried in criminal court with a jury preesnt?????

Merrymom

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 1:36 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

Quote:

Certainly the victims identities should be kept secret to the extent that they want to do so, at the same time when somebody is wanted for a crime and it's public knowledge or public record of what the crime is, that makes it pretty hard to keep secret particularly with incest. Again, we cannot afford to keep quiet for one victim's sake if it means that we put at risk there being many more victims. You must know the pasuk "Don't stand by idly over your brother's blood". Silence in of itself is aiding a evil person. These people don't just commit one crime, they do it over and over again. In that link provided it was stated that on average these men have over 100 victims! Think about that? Do you really think your fear of LH" takes precedence? At the very least you should be asking a Rav about this if you're unclear about it.

HindaRochel

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 1:41 pm

smilingmom wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

smilingmom wrote:

Criminal court. I think all relations abuse charges and false accusation charges should be brought up in criminal court. One then goes before a panel of jurist.

Yes. I very well might be wrong but I think it would be better in the end. The child's name should be kept secret, and the case shouldn't be in the public eye besides the charges and the final verdict.

I also believe PAS and accusations of false charges should be in criminal court.

I did a very quick search. I can try and find your more info.

I take it you disagree with me? Why? Not combative, asking.