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-> Parenting our children
queenie
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 Sun, Feb 27 2005, 5:59 pm
My daughter and another girl were in the washroom (which is in the classroom) during snack time and they were playing in there. They flushed a toy down the toilet. The washroom is way off to the side and down a bit of a hall (even though it's still in the class) Another girl went and told the morah that my daughter and the friend flushed a toy down the toilet.
Is this loshon hora?
Was she tattle-telling?
And how did this other girl know unless she was there too? hmm...... The teacher automatically believed the informant and was thanked for doing so. What do you think about that?
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Tefila
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 7:23 pm
| Quote: | Is this loshon hora?
Was she tattle-telling? |
Yes! But remember toddlers don't truly understand that concept yet!
and
| Quote: | | The teacher automatically believed the informant and was thanked for doing so. |
The teacher shouldv'e called all 3 of them together and find out exactly what happened and then shouldv'e taught them the idea of loshon hora etc.
BTW Is this the guilty parties side that you are hearing or a factual account of what happened 
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ForeverYoung
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:31 pm
this is a very tricky issue.
Children need to be taught about lh, but they slso need to know that parents need to know things.
I teach my kids not to tell me the name if there is nothing that can be done about it. and that if somebody hurts them, I need to know who it is so we can talk to the morah & help the offender do teshuva.
I heard that 'overdoing' lh caused problems w/ teens who didn't say anything to their parents and got into major troubles (if parents knew, whatever it was wouldn't have happened at all)
So here I am, davening to have the wisdom to teach the halahos & to know what's going on (and to keep the halahos too)
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queenie
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 9:49 pm
I got the story of what happened from my daughter and she is a very verbal child. But, she is just a child. She actually came home crying b/c she said the teacher gave her a time out and forgot about her and she didn't get snack. The next day I took part of the morning off from work and went to speak to the morah.
She told me she was pleased that the girl told on the others and never considered that she could be guilty too. BTW, doesn't a morah notice when 3 girls are in the washroom?? Especially during snack time.
When I said something about tattle telling and loshon horah she looked shocked.
I would think that this would have been a perfect "teachable moment"
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amother
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 10:26 pm
okay. I will guess that you queenie have never taught preschool. It is overwhelming. There are some days that the only way you are going to know if toys are being flushed down the toilet (or someone is drawing on someone else's face, or someone is eating sand, etc.) is if some other child comes and tells you.
Loshon hora and tattletaling is completely irrelevant here. If the child is doing something wrong or dangerous, the other kids should definitely tell an adult. Would you want someone to tell an adult if your child's new toy was being flushed down the toilet or would you worry about loshon hora and tattletaling ?
Please stop being judgemental of teachers. Instead of criticizing, try to volunteer to sub in the classroom when the teacher is gone. You might widen your horizons.
Also, if you end up taking off work everytime your kid goes into time out, you might send your child a message like : my teacher is stupid and her discipline rules don't matter because my mommy knows I am right.
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ForeverYoung
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 10:43 pm
amother, you don't need to hide to express your opinion.
and you could have expressed it nicer.
I think that not noticing 3 (or even 1 or 10) children in the bathroom is dangerous - a child can get hurt there
I also would be VERY upset if my child was forgotten about in the time out & not given snack b/c of it
(especially at this age; toddlers are very cranky when hungry!!)
I don't think that the 'teller' should have been punished, nor do I agree that this was a perfect teaching moment, b/c the other kids were ruining somebody elses property - it was very le'toeles.
The question I have is: did the informant do it out of spite? Or was she mad that she didn't get a turn to flash? Just wondering.....
I also don't agree with the position of automatically believing the 'informant'
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queenie
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 11:11 pm
First, I am wondering why you are cowardly hiding behind amother? Don't you feel that what you say is important enough to say with your real name? Or are you embarassed?
I must ask, why would you assume I never taught in a preschool? Does it matter? I would think any good teacher would always know where her students are, especially little ones. BTW, why ask about how my child would feel about her toy? If something is valuable I just wouldn't bring it to school. Problem solved!
About tattle-taling and LH, they are both vitally important to a child's upbringing and any time you have a real situation to teach it you should. Tattle-taling in all frum schools I know is unacceptable and forbidden. Zero tolerance for loshon hora too. Did you also forget that the third girl must have been in the washroom to know what was going on? In a court of law that would be called an accomplice and she would be charged just the same. Just bc she didn't do the flushing doesn't mean she wasn't guilty too. Ahh, but I digress...
A frum person should always worry and watch LH. Don't be a push over and accept this behavior. Take the child to task.
Talk about being judgemental, who was criticizing? I was simply asking questions. You seem to take this quite personally. I know that my daughter and her teacher now know that I am involved in my daughter's life. I never said that I come in every time she gets a time out (guess you didn't read too clearly) I said she came home crying and didn't get snack. My daughter doesn't cry or complain. However, she now knows that when she tells me something I take her seriously and speak to the teacher to Iinvestigate the situation. At home I listened to her seriously. I also spoke to her about being in the washroom. She was punished at home for that. Then, I went to discuss the issue with her teacher.
I must say, you don't seem very well educated or worldly. You really could have read my post more clearly b/c you got a lot of information wrong. I am still wondering why you had such an emotional and heated response. Are we not all just jewish mothers discussing issues here?
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ForeverYoung
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Sun, Feb 27 2005, 11:21 pm
Queenie, on a completely impersonal note:
(No emotions, only facts, a halachic discussion)
what makes you think that the 3rd kid was speaking lashon hara?
I think it was letoeles (unless spoken out of spite. but lets assume it wasnt)
property was being destroyed. Why was it wrong of ther to tell the Morah?
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sarahd
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 4:34 am
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The question asked in the topic thread was "Is this Lashon Hara". I think FY is right - it seems to have been said le'toeles, which would make it not lashon hara. It's very important for children to know that they are allowed to tell the adult in charge when someone is doing something wrong or dangerous.
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ForeverYoung
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 11:06 am
| Quote: | | t's very important for children to know that they are allowed to tell the adult in charge when someone is doing something wrong or dangerous. |
not allowed - HAVE TO!!!
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ForeverYoung
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 11:35 am
I am so paranoid that my kids might suffer in scilence!!!!!!
Petrified somebody will tell them it's lashon hara to tell parents!!!
going to begin a thread on it.
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Motek
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 1:30 pm
Queenie - how old is your daughter?
morah overwhelmed in preschool? sounds like too many kids per morah
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Tefila
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 1:36 pm
| Quote: | | morah overwhelmed in preschool? sounds like too many kids per morah |
Yes have to agree sounds strange she's overwhelmed then whats she doing there.  or she should be telling principal not waiting till something happens 
Listen I too have taught in preschool and had this policy no more then 2 kids at a time to washroom, and had to be accompanied if it was more and to be checked up on if they were in long.
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queenie
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 5:25 pm
OK, let's try to answer a few questions.
I hope the teacher is not overwhelmed. There are 4 teachers and about 18 kids. But, not all the kids are always there or at the same time. The teacher that I spoke to about the incident was apparently not even there when the incident happened. Obviously she is allowed a break but perhaps snack time is not the best time then.
You are right, I was asking if it's loshon hora. Of course, it's only LH if it's true. The teacher just assumed the child was telling the truth. I still wonder how the kid knew unless she was there.
Why do I think the 3rd kid was saying LH? Yes, bc it might have been spoken out of spite. But really, I was truly upset bc I think there is a lack of discipline in the class.
For the first time this year I received a "Nachus Note" that my daughter lined up properly. Does that mean my daughter hasn't been lining up all year? I guess so b/c then why would it be such a big deal when she does line up and they make a big deal and send home a note.
If she was given a time out every time she doesn't line up and then had to eat lunch alone b/c she didn't line up I bet it would only be a few days before she starts to line-up.
I was also upset that the morah forgot about her in time-out and she didn't get snack. My daughter is three. Her time out should only be 3 minutes. I went to speak to the teacher to show I am concerned.
Her teacher was also very concerned, talked to me for a long time and even called me later erev shabbos and she wasn't even the teacher in the room at the time of the incident. But, she is in charge of the class so she should be aware when these situations occur so she can speak to her staff. Parents should also have an open communication with teachers.
I hope that clears up any questions and I appreciate your clarity in your replies.
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amother
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 6:16 pm
Allright Queenie- maybe I was too harsh earlier and I'm sorry.
I still think that teachers, especially preschool teachers, don't get enough respect and consideration. You can't really expect each teacher to accurately judge who did what and who was lying and what really happened in each situation. Teachers are not omnipresent and all they can do is try to guess based on what kids tell them and the little that they saw. I am sure that you have had that with your kids- one of them does something to the other and both have very different stories about what happened and you have to make your best guess and mete out consequences to the best of your ability. Now imagine that you had 18 kids. Would you really be able to keep track of who is in the bathroom, flushing down whose toy ? And who started it and who was just an accomplice ? Every day at every moment ? What if there were two or three of you ? Would you be able to do it then ? Probably not. Not every second, anyway.
Loshon hora and tattling do not apply if something is really wrong. Loshon hora and tattling lessons are good if the kids are saying " Morah- she's looking at me" or "morah, she's picking her nose" not if they are flushing toys in the bathroom.
Still, the situation that you describe is quite common and I would not get upset over one incident. If your child keeps on missing snack or coming home unhappy over and over again, then I would speak to the teacher and if necessary to administration. There will be many, many things to discuss with the school over the next ten years and a word to the wise : those parents who complain once in a while are listened to more closely than those who complain all the time. Have you told your child's teacher how happy you are with the program, her teaching style etc. ? If you have taken the time to show appreciation, she will be much more receptive to any suggestions/criticisms you have.
About the nachas note thing - that is done to show YOU that the teacher cares about your child. It has nothing to do with lining up or whether the teacher wants your daughter to line up or if your child has or has not been lining up well during the rest of the year. It just means that the teacher wants to show you that she notices when your child is good as well as when she is not so good. I worked in a school with that nachas note system for a few years and that is how the teachers did it- to make a parent happy, not because of any discipline reason.
Finally, if you are still wondering why I am posting as amother, it is because I have found that people on this site tend to be harsh when someone disagrees. So I will post anonymously for now.
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hadasa
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 6:59 pm
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Just some food for thought - is your daughter saying Lashon Hara when she tells you that the teacher forgot about her?
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Tefila
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Mon, Feb 28 2005, 7:24 pm
| Quote: | | is your daughter saying Lashon Hara when she tells you that the teacher forgot about her? |
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gryp
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Tue, Mar 01 2005, 10:00 am
just my own two cents here- I cant think of any reason 4 Morahs would be overwhelmed with less than 18 kids. unless there is more than one special ed child in the class. when I taught preschool we had 18 kids and only 2 Morahs and we were not overwhelmed on any day.
4 Morahs for 18 kids is a ratio of less than five kids per teacher. an adult cant keep her eye on 4 or 5 kids at a time?
the truth is that when kids say "im going to the bathroom" you never know what could be going on because there is no supervision in the bathrooms. this scares me about any bathroom anywhere for any age.
but when I taught preschool we made class trips to the bathroom during the day and the kids made sure to go then. I liked that arrangement because we supervised what was going on in the bathroom. once or twice a day it happened that someone had to go to the bathroom but we were able to keep an eye on things then too.
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