Emunas Chachomim- when they seem so wrong?

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:32 am

A test run-
http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....40215

Shalhevet- the woman of great ideas and great emunah.
I- lots of questions and a less wonderful emunah.
Her claim- let people ask emunah questions to the board
My test- can this be done without being bashed?

Rabbanim- gedolei hador- emunat chachamim
Lots of men with smicha out there. All learned. All yirei shamayim I'll say. (Maybe there are some without, but that's not the point.) Lots of ways of interpreting torah.
Rabbi 1 says 1 thing. Rabbi 2 says something else. Rabbi 3 agrees with Rabbi 1 and disagrees with Rabbi 2. Rabbi 1 and 3 say Rabbi 2 is an apikores and says things neged hatorah. Rabbi 4 supports Rabbi 2. Rabbi 1 and 3 put Rabbi 2 in cherem, as well as his supporter, Rabbi 4.

We're supposed to have emunat chachamim. In who? Rabbi 1, 2, 3, 4, or a different Rabbi 5?
How can we respect rabbanim if they don't have respect for each other?
How are we supposed to know who is a real gadol hador anyhow and who is the little shtinker who's only goal is to make a chillul hashem?

grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:43 am

I don't know if I should duck now or later, but I feel that I must point out that the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew, period and that's where I put my own emunas chachamim. (I wouldn't say the same about all lubav's, though. Let's just say that some manage to follow in the Rebbe's footsteps better than others.)

also, unfortunately, being a talmid chacham doesn't automatically do away with one's yetzer hara or even guarantee yiras shamayim. When choosing a rav, one needs to take both into account.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:50 am

Dear amother,

Firstly halevai that I was a woman of "great emuna". I think everyone struggles with emuna, just some more and some less. If we are trying, that's what Hashem wants.

I don't really have time to write a lot (sorry!) but I'll try and give you a short answer.

First, I don't believe everyone today with semicha has yiras shamayim. Once semicha was given by a rav to a talmid after many years of knowing him, of knowing he was worthy of being a rav - also due to his common sense, yiras shamayim etc. Today many people get semicha by taking tests and it just shows they have the knowledge (and maybe they have become a rav for the money, koved etc), so you have to seek out a genuine rav.

We know who is a gadol because other rabbonim recognize such a person as a gadol. Just like doctors will know among themselves who is a better doctor, better than a simple person without much medical knowledge.

If people are real gedolim, with real yiras shamayim, they will respect another gadol even if they disagree with him. If Rabbi 1 says Rabbi 2 is an apikores, you have to see what the general consensus is among rabbonim. If Rabbi 1 (Sephardi godel) and Rabbi 3 (chassidish godel) and Rabbi 4 (Litvish godel) all say Rabbi 2 is an apikorus, I would stay well away from Rabbi 2. However, if a lot of politicians with semicha/ nameless rabbonim etc are accusing a rabbi of apikorsus, forget it.

We have to choose a rav based on our common sense and perception that he has yirat shamayim and follow him.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:59 am

amother wrote:

Just as an aside OP, what type of helpful answers/responses do you think you would have gotten in a closed "losing emuna forum"?

I'm not other people. If I knew what others would answer, there'd be no need for such a forum.

But I would word such a question differently there, which would get different answers. More like "What do you do when you follow a certain rav but others are calling him an apikores/non torah-dik?"
and then maybe I'd get an answer like "You need to chose a rav that is right for your family. Aseh licha rav, and if this is your rav, then no one can fault you. You just follow your rav and ignore the nay sayers."

ora_43

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:13 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

We have to choose a rav based on our common sense and perception that he has yirat shamayim and follow him.

And what if you do that, using your own common sense and perception, but others say that he is an apikores?

What "others," and how many of them?

If a handful of anti-Zionist chassidish rabbis were to call my dati leumi rabbi an apikorus, I wouldn't worry about it (for that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if that's already happened). If OTOH some of the big rabbis in the dati leumi community were calling him an apikorus, then I'd worry.

I think in a case like that I'd go to the other rabbis and try to figure out why they are saying what they are saying, and see if they change my mind or not.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:13 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

We have to choose a rav based on our common sense and perception that he has yirat shamayim and follow him.

And what if you do that, using your own common sense and perception, but others say that he is an apikores?

I think I answered that - you have to look at who said he is an apikorus. The village gossips? Or gedolei hador/ rabbonim held in high esteem by many groups in your town?

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:20 am

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

We have to choose a rav based on our common sense and perception that he has yirat shamayim and follow him.

And what if you do that, using your own common sense and perception, but others say that he is an apikores?

I think I answered that - you have to look at who said he is an apikorus. The village gossips? Or gedolei hador/ rabbonim held in high esteem by many groups in your town?

What if its one gadol hador and the other rabbonim haven't said anything?

freidasima

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:36 am

If I say I don't have any blanket emunas chachomim do I get thrown off? I don't have too much trust in anyone or anything other than the ribono shel olam. Unfortunately in our religion he hasn't come down in the flesh or given us a son or daughter or anything else. Moshe rabbeinu who talked to him face to back (not even face to face) isn't around to ask and as for all the others....Heaven help us. Sure there are gedolim and I would ask them a halochic question but Borush Hashem I'm Shtark MO and in my neck of the woods we only ask very specific inyonim of law. I would not trust anyone but myself and my own brain with serious questions having to do with my life, such as whether to have or not have another child, lehavdil who to vote for etc. I would ask rabbonim, gedolim and others if they were experts in the field I needed advice in, just like I would ask anyone else who is an expert and not religious, not Jewish not human if I could talk to them in their whatever language. But to say I would abide by what they say? No way Jose.
I'll take my chances later on when my time comes up with the Ribono Shel Olam, thank you. My guess is that he is sitting up there, alternately laughing and crying looking at what his people have done in his name. Including Gedolim. And I don't mean laughing there.

marina

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:28 am

Emunas Chachomim is a much bigger question for me. Yes, of course it is about how rabbis who behave poorly can still be called rabbis, but it is more than that. It is about how do you know that they are giving over ratzon Hashem to you instead of some social norm from the 1800s. How do you really know what Hashem wants from you? Because you trust your rabbis? The rabbis of the Shulchan Aruch? How do you trust them if they have clearly written some outrageous things?

Quote:

but I feel that I must point out that the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew

You are misinformed. If you are interested, you can PM me.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:30 am

I think that basically you choose your Rav and only leave that Rav if your sechel tells you this is not al pi din (his decisions in general, not on a particular issue).

So some of your own learning and knowledge has to be in there...

We have Rabbi Riskin, who we don't see very often, but we would trust him absolutely, and Rabbi Chaim Wasserman originally from Passaic, easier to get and same deal. We also trust and use Rabbi Markowitz here on the Yishuv. I've also used Rav Bachko. I'm spelling his name wrong I know.

If I were dealing with a specific issues that our Rabbi(s) couldn't handle we would ask those we trust to recommend someone.

I would basically abide by what the Rabbi had to say unless I really had the feeling they were off...but then if I knew the answer to the question why would I ask it?

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:35 am

marina wrote:

It is about how do you know that they are giving over ratzon Hashem to you instead of some social norm from the 1800s. How do you really know what Hashem wants from you? Because you trust your rabbis? The rabbis of the Shulchan Aruch? How do you trust them if they have clearly written some outrageous things?

Funny, I have lots of big issues, but this is not one of them. The Torah says to listen to the rabbanim, so it is ratzon Hashem to listen to them, and more than that, their psak becomes ratzon Hashem. That's the halachic system.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:40 am

marina wrote:

I don't simply trust, I think that is the essence of what I was trying to say. I trust my Rav the way I would trust my doctor; because I believe he has studied and examined the issues and knows what he is talking about. I don't accept him merely because he is a Rav.

red sea

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:45 am

I like your answer shalhevet.

I want to add not to simply beleive stuff you see in print in the jewish news (especially internet news) quoting rabbi's either, so many times its twisted (or even outrageous lies) for an agenda by others.

I think sometimes people will self righteously make you feel like you don't have emunas chachamim if you dont follow like a blindfolded zombie but really you are supposed to use your common sense as outlined by shalhevet and others and that is emunas chachamim no matter what others think.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:46 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

We have to choose a rav based on our common sense and perception that he has yirat shamayim and follow him.

And what if you do that, using your own common sense and perception, but others say that he is an apikores?

I think I answered that - you have to look at who said he is an apikorus. The village gossips? Or gedolei hador/ rabbonim held in high esteem by many groups in your town?

What if its one gadol hador and the other rabbonim haven't said anything?

You can pm me with some more details if it's letoeles. It's got too complicated - I couldn't even work out if it's the godol hador being called an apikorus or doing the calling.