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Emunas Chachomim- when they seem so wrong?
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 9:45 am
HindaRochel wrote:
poelmamosh wrote:
GR wrote:
Quote:
The same Rebbe who spoke about the importance of Ahavas Yisroel and considered each Jew as precious as a diamond, apparently also stressed to his chassidim that "our poorest surpasses their best" (unzer ziburis is besser vi zeier idis) when comparing Lubavitcher chassidim to other chassidim and other groups of Orthodox Jews.

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

the quote is from the Previous Rebbe. The context is a letter written stating the importance of yeshiva bochurim learning in an integrated setting, ie nigleh (Talmud/halacha) and Chassidus, which elevates their level of learning vis a vis that of other yeshivas exponentially.


I would disagree with him, but basically then it seems that it is discussing a philosophy not learning; ie that learning Chassidus is better than not learning Chassidus.

It would be like saying a school which includes art education is better than that of a school which doesn't, because art brings so much knowledge with it that even the best learners in a non-art school are not as good as those in an art school. Not the people, but the educational benefits of the system.

I read each letter and I think you gave a good analogy. Except that I would take it a step further and say that the people with more education have the potential to be better individuals.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 10:27 am
Ruchel wrote:
Woah, what a shocking quote!
It means basically a Chabad murderer is better than a Bobov/Ger/Vizhnitz gadol.

Being proud of who you are (except maybe in Chabad and a few, few other shittas), doesn't mean thinking your minhag is best for everyone. Actually most others are humble enough to FORBID a change in shitta (yes, including changing for their shitta!) except with a VERY good reason.

The rebbe btw, did say to keep the minhagim and not switch (though it seems for the shabbes candles for little girls he did say to switch). Now, what his followers did after he passed, that's another story...
if you define a Lubavicher as someone who dresses a certain way, buys a certain shechita and shuckels in front of a certain siddur 3 times a day, I guess you could interpret what the Rebbe said in this way. But the Rebbe doesn't define things or people that way - the Rebbe is interested in the pnimiyus, not the outer coating.

It seems to me that the Rebbe would define a Lubavicher chasid as a yid who strives to fulfill all taryag mitzvos in thought, speech, and action, learns both nigleh and chasidus at set times each day (aside from saying chitas and Rambam regularly), davens with full kavana and ba'arichus, has a mashpia that he asks for personal advice in his avodas Hashem regularly, participates in chasidishe farbrengens on special dates, and tries to influence his fellow yidden to do the all this and more also, with an attitude of true ahavas yisroel (as in "see what your'e missing out on; not "see how much better I am than you")

To call anyone "a Chabad murderer" would therefore be a contradiction of terms. If you can accept this definition as what the rebbe was saying, do you still have problems with it?

PS According to this truer definition, I don't consider myself a Lubavicher, but a wannabe.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 10:39 am
Quote:
It seems to me that the Rebbe would define a Lubavicher chasid as a yid who strives to fulfill all taryag mitzvos in thought, speech, and action, learns both nigleh and chasidus at set times each day (aside from saying chitas and Rambam regularly), davens with full kavana and ba'arichus, has a mashpia that he asks for personal advice in his avodas Hashem regularly, participates in chasidishe farbrengens on special dates, and tries to influence his fellow yidden to do the all this and more also, with an attitude of true ahavas yisroel (as in "see what your'e missing out on; not "see how much better I am than you")


But what about someone on this level, except he doesn't learn Chabad chassidus because he's, say, Vizhnitz, or who doesn't learn chassidus at all because he's, say, Temani?
I don't see why they would be inferior, or even just missing out on something, more than the Chabad Lubavicher should be "into" Vizhnitz and Temani seforim. They are following THEIR G-d given derech. If one derech was superior to others for everyone, gedolim of all walks of life would try to bring people to this derech, and quite frankly they are doing the opposite and condemning switching strongly.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 10:43 am
Ruchel wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me that the Rebbe would define a Lubavicher chasid as a yid who strives to fulfill all taryag mitzvos in thought, speech, and action, learns both nigleh and chasidus at set times each day (aside from saying chitas and Rambam regularly), davens with full kavana and ba'arichus, has a mashpia that he asks for personal advice in his avodas Hashem regularly, participates in chasidishe farbrengens on special dates, and tries to influence his fellow yidden to do the all this and more also, with an attitude of true ahavas yisroel (as in "see what your'e missing out on; not "see how much better I am than you")


But what about someone on this level, except he doesn't learn Chabad chassidus because he's, say, Vizhnitz, or who doesn't learn chassidus at all because he's, say, Temani?
I don't see why they would be inferior, or even just missing out on something, more than the Chabad Lubavicher should be "into" Vizhnitz and Temani seforim. They are following THEIR G-d given derech. If one derech was superior to others for everyone, gedolim of all walks of life would try to bring people to this derech, and quite frankly they are doing the opposite and condemning switching strongly.
70 panim laTorah - but why shouldn't the Rebbe feel that he's doing something special? the same as there's nothing wrong with the viznitzer and the teimani feeling the same way about their own derech.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 10:55 am
Yes, we should all feel we're doing something special, because we are!

But some shittas have rabbis and followers who think they are "more special" and encourage others to incorporate elements, if not to fully adopt it.
We had a poll about this once, about who thinks their minhag/derech should be good for everyone. Only two or three groups thought so.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 11:08 am
GR wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
poelmamosh wrote:
GR wrote:
Quote:
The same Rebbe who spoke about the importance of Ahavas Yisroel and considered each Jew as precious as a diamond, apparently also stressed to his chassidim that "our poorest surpasses their best" (unzer ziburis is besser vi zeier idis) when comparing Lubavitcher chassidim to other chassidim and other groups of Orthodox Jews.

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

the quote is from the Previous Rebbe. The context is a letter written stating the importance of yeshiva bochurim learning in an integrated setting, ie nigleh (Talmud/halacha) and Chassidus, which elevates their level of learning vis a vis that of other yeshivas exponentially.


I would disagree with him, but basically then it seems that it is discussing a philosophy not learning; ie that learning Chassidus is better than not learning Chassidus.

It would be like saying a school which includes art education is better than that of a school which doesn't, because art brings so much knowledge with it that even the best learners in a non-art school are not as good as those in an art school. Not the people, but the educational benefits of the system.

I read each letter and I think you gave a good analogy. Except that I would take it a step further and say that the people with more education have the potential to be better individuals.


I would agree with that. But then I think art is very important in educational systems Wink

Honestly, just sounds like a philosophy. I don't think he is saying Lubabvitch, all Lubabvitch people, regardless of how they act or treat someone, are better than all not Lubabvitch.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 11:27 am
HindaRochel, I've said this before and I'll say it again, you are blessed with a special talent when it comes to understanding others. As well as sensing the inherent holiness in any given thing.
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Besiyata Dishmaya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 3:54 pm
freidasima wrote:
But what if you don't believe in totally buying into the shita of ANY Rov, godol etc?

So don't. It's not a halachah anywhere that one has to follow the shitta of his Rov or of anyone else, but this doesn't give one the right to be mezalzel or disrespect gedolei yisroel in general.
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