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Dinosaurs: did they exist or not?
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 6:58 pm
I took my son to the book fair at his school yesterday so he could choose a few books. one of the books he wanted was a dinosaur book. my husband saw it last night and said "im not such a fan" I asked him why not and he said cuz the topic of dinosaurs is not so simple. I said what do you mean? they existed at some point- either they were created as fossils, or they really existed during brias haolam. each day of creation was more than just a 24 hour period, so its very possible that they lived during one or more of those days. he asked me if I ever saw one, so I asked him if he ever saw a chilazon. he said its totally different but he didnt tell me why.

any insight from anyone out there?
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Petra




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 10:57 pm
I have no insight but the problem seems so simple compared to the alternative question- does G-d exist? With dinosaurs there are bones. There are reproducible scientific techniques like carbon dating. There's patterns of wearing on the bones, the geometry of the bones can tell where muscles might have attached and how bulky they were and what they did. With G-d there is indirect proof, circumstantial evidence, words espousing proof.

I'm not saying I don't believe. I most certainly do. And I don't have a problem with dinosaurs either.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 11:00 pm
They existed, and kids are always fascinated with them.

One of the most fun dates I ever went on was to the Museum of Natural History. Marvelous creatures.

Also, why are specifically dinosaurs problematic? Is it the age of the earth and evolution in general or just the beasts themselves because... they aren't mentioned in the Torah?
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 11:43 pm
For us it isn't such a problem as we believe they existed. But they are going to come into contact with the idea at some point, it seems like a good idea to me to let them come in contact with it in a way you and your husband can control the introduction to the ideas surrounding the subject.
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fortunate123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 14 2010, 11:51 pm
Of course dinosaurs could have existed, and that does not mean that we have to give up what we know to be true from the Torah. In fact, it only enhances the truth of the Torah. We all know the story of the Nachash, a reptile that walked upright and spoke, and was later cursed to slither on the ground, crushed by man's heel. Were there many of these creatures walking around at the time? There had to be, because only mankind was created as a single individual. All of the animals were created in multitudes.

I am not sure why you say that each day of creation was more than a 24 hour period. Do you know of any source within Torah that supports this claim? I am assuming not, because it is most likely born out of an apologetic approach to reconcile Torah with modern science. Just because the leading scientists of today are all saying one thing, that does not mean we need to re-interpret the Torah to be saying the same thing. There is a great danger in that, putting the anchor on science and trying to fit the Torah to it. We say clearly in the Kiddush that it is "zecher l'maaseh b'reishis" and recount the narrative as written in the torah: "yom hashishi.....vayechal....bayom hashvi'I". The entire reason for us to be observing this 24-hour period (25 because of the safek-doubt of dusk) is to remember what happened at the time of creation. If we are now saying that it wasn't really evening or morning or a day or any set period of time really, then why would we have this wording and why would we have to be so scrupulous in keeping the full 24 hours to the very last minute? You cannot say that it couldn't be considered a day or night on the first three days of creation, before the sun and moon were created - since time is not determined by those creations, they just help facilitate our keeping track of time. Hashem created time and Hashem created Erev as well as Boker and there is no reason other than simple embarassment to what the world will say for us to not believe that erev and boker mean something different than what erev and boker have always meant.

By the way - for those of you who have your doubts: It's hard to argue 'cold facts' when there is 'proof' from carbon dating. Do a google search on the half-life of carbon. Did you see what number comes up? Most sources will say 5,700 but more precise calculations puts the number at 5730 give-or-take 40. That is exactly how old the world is according to Torah - 5,771 years old. (Interestingly, the half-life of carbon keeps changing due to atmospheric changes....)
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Teacup9




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 12:25 am
I see dinosaurs as being perfectly in sync with Torah. There are lots of references to giant reptiles and beasts. Carbon dating is most inaccurate to say the least. And even so it most certainly does not account for things like the mabel, Korach's engulfment, and all the other times Hashem interfered with the natural order he created.

I do see how people might not jump at the idea of bringing them into their home, because they do sort of represent an evolution debate, but so do monkeys. Some people keep non kosher animals out of their toy chests all together. I don't go buying my children dinosaur stuff, but if one picked out a book I would certainly read it......oh wait I did get Hebrew Barney DVDs.

The xtians have a whole creation museum showing dinosaurs walking around with cavemen.
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 10:47 am
LeahsEma wrote:
And I don't have a problem with dinosaurs either.


I do. Very much so. Pests, I tell you. You think they're cute and helpful like Dino in the Flintstones? Ha! You ever try to domesticate a reptile? Can't be done. They're wild animals, even the vegetarian ones. If they don't tear you limb from limb, they'll ravage your garden. And the big ones--worse still. Don't know their own strength. What they think is a love pat will take your face off if it doesn't level your house. Whose brilliant idea was the "Save the Dinosaurs" campaign, anyway?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:07 am
louche wrote:
LeahsEma wrote:
And I don't have a problem with dinosaurs either.


I do. Very much so. Pests, I tell you. You think they're cute and helpful like Dino in the Flintstones? Ha! You ever try to domesticate a reptile? Can't be done. They're wild animals, even the vegetarian ones. If they don't tear you limb from limb, they'll ravage your garden. And the big ones--worse still. Don't know their own strength. What they think is a love pat will take your face off if it doesn't level your house. Whose brilliant idea was the "Save the Dinosaurs" campaign, anyway?


Apparently, neither Louche nor the young Louchettes and Louchifers were fans of Danny and the Dinosaur (or its fine sequel, Danny and the Dinosaur Go to Camp). Clearly they make great friends, even if they can't fit in your house.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:24 am
fortunate123 wrote:
Of course dinosaurs could have existed, and that does not mean that we have to give up what we know to be true from the Torah. In fact, it only enhances the truth of the Torah. We all know the story of the Nachash, a reptile that walked upright and spoke, and was later cursed to slither on the ground, crushed by man's heel. Were there many of these creatures walking around at the time? There had to be, because only mankind was created as a single individual. All of the animals were created in multitudes.

I am not sure why you say that each day of creation was more than a 24 hour period. Do you know of any source within Torah that supports this claim? I am assuming not, because it is most likely born out of an apologetic approach to reconcile Torah with modern science. Just because the leading scientists of today are all saying one thing, that does not mean we need to re-interpret the Torah to be saying the same thing. There is a great danger in that, putting the anchor on science and trying to fit the Torah to it. We say clearly in the Kiddush that it is "zecher l'maaseh b'reishis" and recount the narrative as written in the torah: "yom hashishi.....vayechal....bayom hashvi'I". The entire reason for us to be observing this 24-hour period (25 because of the safek-doubt of dusk) is to remember what happened at the time of creation. If we are now saying that it wasn't really evening or morning or a day or any set period of time really, then why would we have this wording and why would we have to be so scrupulous in keeping the full 24 hours to the very last minute? You cannot say that it couldn't be considered a day or night on the first three days of creation, before the sun and moon were created - since time is not determined by those creations, they just help facilitate our keeping track of time. Hashem created time and Hashem created Erev as well as Boker and there is no reason other than simple embarassment to what the world will say for us to not believe that erev and boker mean something different than what erev and boker have always meant.

By the way - for those of you who have your doubts: It's hard to argue 'cold facts' when there is 'proof' from carbon dating. Do a google search on the half-life of carbon. Did you see what number comes up? Most sources will say 5,700 but more precise calculations puts the number at 5730 give-or-take 40. That is exactly how old the world is according to Torah - 5,771 years old. (Interestingly, the half-life of carbon keeps changing due to atmospheric changes....)


I was taught that the concept of days as we know it only came into existance after man was created. I was also taught that there were worlds created before ours, and dinosaurs may have been a part of one of those worlds. I was also taught that perhaps dinosaurs were created as we know them- as fossils.
none of these answers seem apologetic to me, just possibilities. obviously none of know for sure because we werent there, so all we can do is try to find a way for it to make sense.
no one said that day and night didnt exist, just that the 24 hour day as we know it may not have existed. we are commanded to keep a day as we know it, which would be a 24/25 hour period. also, by the time shabbos rolled around during creation, man was already around, so by then a day was most probably the 24 hour period that we know.
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Capitalchick




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 11:39 am
This thread makes me shake my head, shudder and log off imamother for a good long while...
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amother


 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 8:05 pm
Capitalchick wrote:
This thread makes me shake my head, shudder and log off imamother for a good long while...


what was the purpose of this comment? if you dont have anything to add, or if you dont like the choice of topic, no one is foring you to read this thread.
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 15 2010, 8:17 pm
I learnt that its possible that dinosaurs were the taninim, and they were destroyed in the mabul due to their dangerous nature it would not be good for them to coexist with people. That being said, it makes sense that they are buried and studied based on how they appear in sedimentary rock--which could have been formed as the world was buried in churning waters, no? And dinosaur bones are probably heavier than human bones which would be why they are "deeper" leading scientists to believe that they did not exist with humans. Furthermore, I believe I once heard on a scientific program that water makes things decay faster due to microorganisms present--this was in reference to the Black Sea which has no microorganisms living in it making ruins hard to date. Carbon dating only works assuming that there were constant atmosphering conditions--which again is difficult if you believe the world was under-water for an entire year.
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Pandabeer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 12:52 am
the animals that were created at brias huolom were adult already, so their bones were very old at that time already.
I learned that it was to give apikorsim material to dispute how many years ago it happened (the big boom)

before the mabul there were huge animals that got destinct (I think that's the word), so it's possible that the dino's were part of them
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Pandabeer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 12:53 am
the animals that were created at brias huolom were adult already, so their bones were very old at that time already.
I learned that it was to give apikorsim material to dispute how many years ago it happened (the big boom)

before the mabul there were huge animals that got distinct (I think that's the word), so it's possible that the dino's were part of them
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 12:58 am
Pandabeer wrote:
the animals that were created at brias huolom were adult already, so their bones were very old at that time already.
I learned that it was to give apikorsim material to dispute how many years ago it happened (the big boom)

before the mabul there were huge animals that got distinct (I think that's the word), so it's possible that the dino's were part of them


the big bang Smile

extinct Smile

I won't comment on the content, except to suggest that you may be surprised at how many Orthodox rabbis have no problem with the age of the universe. Apikorsim all?
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 1:21 am
The KBH had to create misleading material to give apikorsim something to talk about? They aren't capable of finding good debating material on their own?
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crush




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 1:48 am
louche wrote:
LeahsEma wrote:
And I don't have a problem with dinosaurs either.


I do. Very much so. Pests, I tell you. You think they're cute and helpful like Dino in the Flintstones? Ha! You ever try to domesticate a reptile? Can't be done. They're wild animals, even the vegetarian ones. If they don't tear you limb from limb, they'll ravage your garden. And the big ones--worse still. Don't know their own strength. What they think is a love pat will take your face off if it doesn't level your house. Whose brilliant idea was the "Save the Dinosaurs" campaign, anyway?

LOL LOL This post reminds me of Harry Potter...Louche, you sound like someone who's convincing Hagrid. LOL
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 3:04 am
Pandabeer wrote:
(the big boom)


"The Big Bang" LOL I don't have a problem with either, kal vechomer dinosaurs.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 5:21 am
Some say yes before the Flood, some say from another destroyed world before, some say no, some say 5770 is symbolic - all Orthodox shittot!
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louche




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 16 2010, 8:08 am
crush wrote:
LOL LOL This post reminds me of Harry Potter...Louche, you sound like someone who's convincing Hagrid. LOL


Hagrid cannot be convinced that any animal of any type is anything other than a cuddly creature crying out for love. I'd be a fool to try.

BTW, if you've ever seen a Gila monster or iguana, you have no reason to doubt that dinos were real.
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