On the verge of a nervous breakdown over tuition

rosehill

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 1:49 pm

Quote:

In Europe they used to have a community tax that was a portion of ma'aser that went to support the community school. Why can't we get rabbonim behind a system like that in the US? It's a similar system that keeps the public schools funded.

Chavamom, I've heard a few such ideas proposed over the years.
1. Assess a "tax" of say 2% on establishments such as pizza stores, seforim stores, kosher restaraunts etc. that would go into a fund that would help out the Yeshivas. This helps spread the burden beyond just the overstretched parent body. Problem is, it's not really enforceable, it would have to be done voluntarily.

2. The Yeshivas in a particular area could run their administrative offices as a "school district". They could keep autonomy over curricula and the like, but share adminstrative costs. They could order supplies as a group, thus lowering prices, and negotiate things like health insurance contracts for staff at a better rate.

Obviously, these are not perfect suggestions, but I believe there must be creative ways to minimise the burden on families, if only the will was there.

Motek

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 3:52 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

In Israel tuition is much cheaper [we are paying 100 dollars a month for each child in cheder] BUT people have much, much smaller incomes than in the States and for many families it is a huge proportion of their incomes.

Could someone help me with the math?

Let's say a family's income in the US is $44,000* and the tuition fee for their one elementary school aged child is $8800. That is 20% of their income. Did I get that right?

Let's say a family's income in Israel is $12,000 and the tuition fee for their one cheder child is $1200 a year (@$100 a month for 12 months). That's 10% of their income, right?

So of course not all incomes are the same and people have different sized families but when comparing tuition in Israel and the US, even taking into consideration the much smaller income in Israel, the percentage of that income that goes to tuition is MUCH smaller.

Corrections are welcome.

* Real median household income remained unchanged between 2003 and 2004 at $44,389, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau

shalhevet

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:10 pm

OK, I stand corrected Motek. (your figures seem reasonable)

Maybe what I should have said is that an American family, after having paid for essentials (food, housing and essential utilities as well as chinuch) will be left with more disposable income than the Israeli family.

I also still wonder why it is so much more expensive in America. Surely paying the Rebbe and other staff and building rent and/or maintenance should at least be proportional. (eg if the Israeli Rebbe is getting $12000 a year, his American counterpart should also get an average American salary.)

That's why I asked before if the schools themselves couldn't make cuts to reduce costs. What are school buildings like? Do they have many expensive extra-curricular activities? If they are eating meals there, could they be less fancy?
I honestly have no idea and would be interested to know.

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:24 pm

I think that there was a period of time in America that chinuch attracted mainly the elderly. Young men who had creativity, patience, and energy for children were not attracted to such a low paying job. Elderly men who used outdated methods and materials were not inspiring many of their students to stay frum. Those young men who were attracted to chinuch often did so because they could not get better positions and had an uncle who was a rosh yeshiva and put them to work. The only way for chinuch to survive was to hire vibrant young teachers but they needed enough money to support families. It was the demand for better pay for rebbes that caused the tuition to skyrocket.

Motek

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:36 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

after having paid for essentials (food, housing and essential utilities as well as chinuch) will be left with more disposable income than the Israeli family.

Keep in mind:

1) health insurance in the US is astronomical whereas in Israel it's socialized medicine

2) In Israel, apartments are usually bought as part of the shidduch "package" and the couple does not pay rent or a mortgage. In the US, people spend lots and lots of money every month on housing. The frumer the area, the higher the rents and mortgages. I saw the thread about costs for kollel couples in Israel and the posts about how high the rent is and thought: huh?! that's high?

In N.Y. and L.A. those numbers are a dream!

Quote:

I also still wonder why it is so much more expensive in America. Surely paying the Rebbe and other staff and building rent and/or maintenance should at least be proportional. (eg if the Israeli Rebbe is getting $12000 a year, his American counterpart should also get an average American salary.)

An Israeli cheder has no real secular studies department, right? They get an hour or so of math and geography and who teaches that? The limudei kodesh Rebbi? Certainly not a licensed professional!

An Israeli cheder has no gym, no lab. Do they usually have kitchens or do the boys bring food from home?

I also wonder about the costs. I wonder why tuition wasn't a crisis in the 70's. And it's not only because of bigger families today because even those with fewer than 4 children complain about tuition.

So I have a different mathematical question. I want to know what percentage of today's US income is tuition versus the percentage back in the 70's. Anyone know?

What about beautiful buildings being built and then everybody having to kill themselves over the building fund? How about a poll, asking everybody whether they are ready and willing to commit to X amount more in tuition to cover some of the costs of construction OR stick with the old building!

Who says I want a brand-new campus with beautiful classrooms if it means a nervous breakdown? Who says I want more classrooms so the school can have 5 parallel classes instead of 3?

Cutting costs - who says kids need air conditioning? That's astronomical!

Motek

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:40 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I think that there was a period of time in America that chinuch attracted mainly the elderly.

Maybe you're thinking of the Talmud Torahs in the 40's that had immigrants from Europe teaching in them since finding a job was so hard.

Quote:

It was the demand for better pay for rebbes that caused the tuition to skyrocket.

I don't think so since the salaries of rebbis and morahs is disgustingly low. Yeshivos and girls schools are losing out bigtime since potentially terrific teachers are opting not to teach since the salaries are the pits. In fact, THIS used to be the recurring theme in articles about schools. Now that has been superseded by the tuition topic.

TzenaRena

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:48 pm

Southernbubby, you make it sound as though no person in their right mind would want to teach, so anyone who teaches, or taught in earlier years is obviously a leftover or misfit who couldn't get a job. I dont believe that, and there are moving testimonials that are told about teachers who brought their talmidim to full observance of Yiddishkeit. some of them were elderly too!

I think people who enter the field of Chinuch are coming from a solid background of successful learning and a love for Torah, who are inspired with the mission of transmitting the Torah and its ways to the young generation.

And what are Shluchim if not teachers first and foremost?

sarahd

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 4:58 pm

Motek wrote:

Cutting costs - who says kids need air conditioning? That's astronomical!

Motek, I agree with everything else you wrote on this topic, but no a/c? Phew! Did you ever teach a class in 98° weather, humidity 72%? I did, and I can tell you it's just about impossible. Also pathetic to see 27 9 year olds sitting on the floor in a darkened classroom (because maybe it's 2 degrees cooler that way), and when the bell rings for recess, they don't even move because it's just too hot.

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 5:04 pm

SaraYehudis, there are some people who teach for the same reason that some people devote their life to learning but we ran into some teachers in the early years of sending our children to school, who taught by default.
As to what Motek said about pitiful teachers' salaries, my daughter's friends that taught sometimes did not get paid for months. Even a pitiful salary was better than that! Often teachers are newly graduated sem girls who will accept a very low salary. These girls are young and energetic but lack experience and clout. Before they made girls obligate themselves to put off shidduchim until most of the year was over, they often replaced these teachers 5 or 6 times a year.

sarahd

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 5:30 pm

Motek wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Motek, I agree with everything else you wrote on this topic, but no a/c?

You mean you didn't have one of those blue and white itty-bitty fans on your desk when you were a kid? You didn't fold paper back and forth to make a fan?

No, my parents didn't believe in spending money on those fans and my teachers insisted that the effort we exerted in waving those folded-paper fans generated more heat than the fans could cool. But anyhow, I was talking about teaching in such heat, not learning.

gryp

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 6:00 pm

Quote:

Motek, I agree with everything else you wrote on this topic, but no a/c?

I agree with sarahd. in order to teach and learn properly, the climate has to be comfortable!

speaking of the differences of Israeli lifestyle and American, in Israel the government subsidizes basic foods like bread. not here in America!

Quote:

That's why I asked before if the schools themselves couldn't make cuts to reduce costs. What are school buildings like? Do they have many expensive extra-curricular activities? If they are eating meals there, could they be less fancy?

school buildings are just school buildings. they arent drab and falling down, but anything "fancy" like an elevator is donated.
there are no extracurricular activities. doesnt the school day in Israel end at 3? here it ends anywhere between 4-5:30 depending on the age.
the meals here are basically government funded.
the schools swear they dont have a penny in the bank and at the same time teachers are desperate for a raise.
(this is in my area)

Motek

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 6:36 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Even a pitiful salary was better than that!

How about a decent salary paid on time? What a novel idea! Idea

Quote:

Often teachers are newly graduated sem girls who will accept a very low salary.

They have no choice, do they? Unless all seminary graduates agree, together, that they won't take any teaching jobs.

Quote:

These girls are young and energetic but lack experience and clout.

Some are excellent. Some aren't.
Some married and teaching for years are excellent. Some aren't.

Experience is definitely a plus but not the only factor.

Quote:

Before they made girls obligate themselves to put off shidduchim until most of the year was over, they often replaced these teachers 5 or 6 times a year.

Never heard of 5-6 a year. Sounds quite extreme and unusual.

Motek

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 6:38 pm

sarahd wrote:

Actually, I didn't have one of those fans either. I don't know why. As for generating more heat by waving those fans - yeah, don't all teachers claim that? Wink

shayna82

Thu, Aug 31 2006, 10:14 pm

Motek wrote:

I also wonder about the costs. I wonder why tuition wasn't a crisis in the 70's. And it's not only because of bigger families today because even those with fewer than 4 children complain about tuition.

Maybe because back then, schools didnt have new building constructed every few years, in turn, didnt demand of the parents to pay towards it. Second, everything has gone up since the 70's, so you cant really say, why is it soo much. but maybe its all relative? I dont know, my grandmother got her house in 1959 in L.A for under 20 grand, which is so laughable, especially since its worth well over a million now, the same old fashtunkane house. but she said, back then it was a lot of moeny, crazy no? maybe people DID complain, we just werent around to see it. I dont know. All I know is that, where you live, and what school you go to really has an effect on the whole tuiition thing. I hear its murder in L.A and NY, you dont hear that much outside of the big towns.