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On the verge of a nervous breakdown over tuition
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 5:30 pm
sarahd wrote:
These parents are playing with fire. I don't think they are aware of what their children will be exposed to during a public school education. Besides, 90 minutes a day of Jewish education is enough to produce an am haaretz, not much more.


Didn't the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform communities try the model of 'after school supplemental schooling' for years and find that it was a bust all around? Why do these parents think it is going to work for them now?
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timeout




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 8:05 pm
My BIL is paying $58,000 for 5 kids in school I think that number is just mind boggling how do they do it?

We definitley need to do something about these numbers!
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motheroftwo




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 10:44 pm
so how come chassidishe schools are cheaper?
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imaamy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:03 pm
Timeout does your brother own a bank? What an astonishing number!
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:04 pm
I spoke to a MD in Philly who was paying $60,000 a year. He commented that he can't afford to make aliyah b/c he is in the poor house between his kids' tuition and paying back his med school loans.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:09 pm
in the poor house? how serious is he?

would he say that it really wasn't worthwhile becoming a doctor from a financial perspective?
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:36 pm
Motek wrote:
in the poor house? how serious is he?

would he say that it really wasn't worthwhile becoming a doctor from a financial perspective?


Not all doctors are making huge incomes after paying their own tuition bills, malpractice insurance, etc.

This family had a large number of children and he had huge debt from medical school and residency. They lived very modestly, much more so than most of their neighbors (much smaller home, kids in hand-me-downs) so I don't think that he was exagerating.

While we are on the topic of doctors, I know another woman whose husband is in his late 30's, he is doing a fellowship in a pediatric specialty and their income is $80,000. Not bad relative to many of us until you consider his own loans and that they have to afford to live in a frum area of NYC for his fellowship, tuition for their kids, etc. They get no tuition break b/c they were told despite not having the money now, in the future he will have a greater earning potential, so they should borrow the money until he finishes his fellowship. Pile on some more debt!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:49 pm
so I really wonder what both of those doctors would say if asked - does it pay (literally) to go to medical school?
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:50 pm
Motek wrote:
so I really wonder what both of those doctors would say if asked - does it pay (literally) to go to medical school?


Many (except for the most successful) would tell you no.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:54 pm
ditto for lawyers? other professionals?

if so, then it's interesting how some posters, in the Secular Studies discussion, insisted that higher education is the key to financial success

if you have to be a TOP doctor or lawyer, otherwise it doesn't pay, and how many people end up TOPS, then where does that leave those who want to support their families with dignity?
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:13 am
Motek wrote:
ditto for lawyers? other professionals?

if so, then it's interesting how some posters, in the Secular Studies discussion, insisted that higher education is the key to financial success

if you have to be a TOP doctor or lawyer, otherwise it doesn't pay, and how many people end up TOPS, then where does that leave those who want to support their families with dignity?


Lawyers don't have malpractice, residency, and rarely incure the debt that that MD's do in acquiring an education.

Also, things are changing rapidly in the world of medicine. Tuition has skyrocketed as has malpractice insurance at a time when reimbursement is going down. The situation even 10 - 15 years ago was very, very different.

BTW - who says you have to be a doctor or lawyer? My sister has a master's degree in math and makes a very nice living as an actuarial consultant. She works from 6 - 12 each day, her husband is in the same field (they met in school) and arranges his day so that he doesn't go into work until 10 AM. This way their baby is minimally in daycare and she feels she can both raise her children and 'live with dignity'.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:29 am
Quote:
if so, then it's interesting how some posters, in the Secular Studies discussion, insisted that higher education is the key to financial success



This discussion is about yeshiva tuition bills. If the potential doctor or lawyer chose to be a...telemarketer, for example, then, sure- they would be on scholarship from yeshiva and not have to pay as much money. If anything at all. But then what would the yeshiva do about supporting itself ? The yeshivos have to rely on someone to pay the teacher salaries and most often the bulk of the burden is placed on people with "higher education" and "better salaries". Because, in my experience, the schools don't turn away people who can't pay, instead they just raise the tuition for those who can pay.

Yes, if you have a higher education, you are more likely to have a higher salary than without one. "Financial success", however, is a subjective term. You can still end up without having much money left over at the end, depending on your lifestyle choices. If you choose to spend your money on a yacht and new cars and houses, you will not have much money left over. Are you still financially successful ? If you have 13 kids and pay full tuition for yeshiva, you will not have much money left over. Are you still financially successful ? If you donate 85 % of your salary to some worthy tzedakah, you will not have much money left over. Are you still financially successful ? This in no way is an argument against not getting a higher education- not having money left over after paying bills is just a reflection of the lifestyle choices that people make.

On the other hand, if you have a very limited education, your choices are limited correspondingly and you don't have the option of paying for your kids' yeshiva bills or buying yachts or giving generously to tzedaka. Your only options consist of living pay check to pay check and wondering how your family's basic necessities will be met this month. The doctor's "poverty" is relative. He probably does not worry about putting food on the table. Instead, he might worry about paying high property taxes. A very differen kind of worry.

Make a new thread in this section if you want to discuss the minuses or pluses of higher education.
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 09 2005, 8:48 pm
MOtek are you dissing higher education? Please don't. Plenty of frum boys who were not given the choice to have a proper education because of parents and stupid schools are now suffering as they have to deal with their families and finding a job to have a roof over their heads and food on the table. Many end up having to start from the begining, which is basic english and maths and work their way up, wasting many more years in education before getting a decent paying job. We are not talking of the boys who are Rabbis and have a Rabbi job in a community either.
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BrachaVHatzlocha




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 09 2005, 11:34 pm
Okay, I have a few points on this matter.
As a TEACHER point of view, I've worked in a few school and some have VERY HARD TIMES financially. You really can't blame the schools that they ask for high money. Expenses are high. And teachers don't even get paid that much!!!
Secondly, I once heard someone discussing this issue, and mentioned how some families ask for tuition reduction, while they have the money just fine to go on vacation to Israel. Isn't that true in some cases?
Now I'm not saying that is true in EVERY or even MOST cases, but in some cases. If you're going to spend a few thousand dollars on a vacation, shouldn't it rather go for chinucH?
Like I said, every situation is different...really tuition reductions should be based on income and family size and it does get nutz how high tuition can be!
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imaamy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 09 2005, 11:44 pm
Yes, the tuition reduction for families with new cars and vacations bother me too! The school says it does it's best but I think there is abuse and the scholarship contributors pay for it. Any ideas about how to stop it??
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 12:54 am
I don't know. Where do you draw the line? We certainly get tuition assistance. We got a new car this past year through my husband's work (owned by employer, not us) - but do you think people know that is how we got it? I also know that with the zero percent finacing, etc, etc, etc that many places are offering, the monthly payments can wind up cheaper for new cars than for used!

I went to Israel 2 years ago - again, my husband went for work and it cost me all of $400 for my ticket. We stayed with friends while there. We lived there for 9 years, so there were plenty of invites extended for the 2 shabbosim we were there and the days in between. I would hate to think that someone was sitting around calculating that if I had gone to Israel that year, perhaps we shouldn't be 'zoche' to a tuition reduction.
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raizy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 1:12 am
why are we paying x amount of dollars while the neighbors and friends down the road who are all going to the same cheder are all paying different amounts. also why if they have better jobs then my family why are they paying less then me . I could never figure that one out... and u wonder why we are always in debt....
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 4:32 am
chavamom wrote:
I would hate to think that someone was sitting around calculating that if I had gone to Israel that year, perhaps we shouldn't be 'zoche' to a tuition reduction.


Who's the "someone" who's sitting around making calculations? Isn't there a scholarship assistance committee? Where I worked there was one, and people were certainly entitled to defend their expenditures. In my experience, the committee usually erred to the favor of the applicant.
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imaamy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 10:00 am
Yes, there is a committee and they say they try their best to avoid abuses, but I'm not talking about work-provided trips or cars. I'm talking about people who tell me they apply for aid and then tell me about their trip to Hawaii and their new self-paid minivan. They can do whatever they want in their personal lives, but my position is I'm not paying full tuition AND scholarship fund to support their vacations and cars.
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sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 10:46 am
Well, are you telling the school about these people's vacations and new cars? It always drove us crazy when parents would call and tell us that there are people abusing the scholarship system. and then when we asked them for names, they would suddenly turn frum and not want to tell us because "it's lashon hara." (It's not, btw) If you know someone who's deceiving and stealing from the school, you should tell them who it is.
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