Reading Controversial Classics to Children - Huckleberry Fin

bubby

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 7:38 am

This is what I always taught my students: you cannot judge literature written in the 19th, 18th or 17th centuries by 21st century standards. Even 20th century literature is off now.

Take my "favorite", Jane Austen. Her views of the roles of women are, by today's standards, totally skewed. It took a long time for me to get that the dislike I feel for her novels was based solely on how she portrayed upper middle-class women.

However, that was the norm in her society. Similarly, to call Black people "[N word]" was totally appropriate....THEN. Of course it's a pejorative today, but as it's a derivative of "[black person]" & an easy trip off the tongue, especially with a southern drawl, it was perfectly acceptable. The word "halloween" comes from "All Hallow's Eve"...much harder to say. "Bloody" (as a swear word) - "By My Lady."

It's easy enough to explain & discuss how certain societal norms have come about, but it doesn't take away from the brilliance of the writing. On the contrary, leaving in these words is a perfect opportunity to educate our children outside the box & to discuss the evolution of social commentary & acceptable practices.

This "political correcting" of classic literature is chilling. Next step: revisionist history.

aidelmaidel

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 7:53 am

Wow, this is turning into such an interesting conversation.

I want to clarify somethings but I still have to get my kids on the bus!

First, we live in crown heights. My kids are exposed to people of color on daily basis. They are not afraid of them. They both have black girls who care classmates. We are very careful not to use the yiddish "n" word in our home and EXTREMELY vocal about how Hashem creates Jews in all sorts of skin tones. I don't think my kids even sense the difference in their classmates.

Second, while I agree that most children are reading HF on grade 6 or 7, it aint happening in my childs school. If they're being exposed, it will be by me.

Gtg put them on the bus.

zipporah

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 8:08 am

bubby wrote:

And what age were your students, Bubby? The age where a parent would be reading them a bedtime story? OP was talking about reading stories at night to her children. And the "N' word is on the level of the "C" word. You'd read a book with the "C" word in it to your child for a bedtime story without editing it?

There is a time and place to expose children to great literature in the raw. It should be after they are old enough to process your explanation, not just listen to it.

True story- I asked my parents when I was 9 if I was Black. They looked at me like I was crazy... hello, brown skin! But while I knew my color, and that most kids in my class were a different color, I was just clicking on my race. And my parents took me to African History museums and Motown exhibits, and read me stories about nubian princesses. Reading me a bedtime story with the "N" word in it would not have been enlightening because I didn't have the capacity to distinguish the reason why it was OK for the author to write, but not OK for someone to say it to me.

Simple1

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 8:59 am

c.c.cookie wrote:

I'm going to go completely off topic here, and point out that "[gentile]" means "non-Jew". Just a different language. It's not a derogatory word, unless you use it as such, but the same goes for "non Jew".

Totally agree, it's not derogatory, if not used as such. Arguably, non-Jew can seem worse because it means "not one of us."

H Finn was one of my favorite novels. If I remember correctly, the book actually portrayed a kind view of blacks, so I don't think the use of the "N" word would be too problematic. I'm assuming you'd otherwise teach your kids that we don't use that word nowadays. My mother never let me read To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think I'd want my kids to read it either, but I guess it depends how much you shelter your kids.

saw50st8

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 9:03 am

Simple1 wrote:

c.c.cookie wrote:

I disagree about [gentile]. Its been used negatively enough that is HAS a negative connotation whether you meant it or not. Its more a matter of will others be offended by the term and that answer is yes.

As to Huck Finn, I would allow it. I would also discuss that its inappropriate language and tell them never to use it.

HindaRochel

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 9:21 am

I tried to read HF to my girls when they were young,but because the language was so slangy they never got into it. But I was without and problems able to discuss the issues.

We had for the girls a set of felt dolls that represented children from various nationalities

I feel most children are able to understand these concepts from a young age.
I never felt the need of specifically signaling out someone because of their race, I just simply treat people like people.

We recently watched Song of the South with the girls (now they are quite a bit older) and we talked about the issues raised, not necessarily to them, but as a family discussion, going back and forth about what we saw, critiquing the movie on many levels.

To me that is the way to go...just speak with your children about ideas and beliefs...

Fox

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 10:56 am

zipporah wrote:

If the child is young enough for you to be reading to him then he is not old enough to really comprehend the magnitude of racism or the offensiveness of the "N" word. I censor things for my kids all the time. The book is waiting for them to read and discuss unedited when they are older.

Same here. I read many of these books to my kids in the same way -- a chapter a night. However, I definitely edited as I read. In some cases it was a matter of language; in other cases I felt they might be frightened by a particular image, etc. Remember, we're talking about young children right before bedtime. I wanted to give them a warm, loving experience -- not lessons in literary deconstruction.

BTW, I decided not to read Huck Finn to my kids. We did read Tom Sawyer, and they liked it, but I just didn't think they'd connect with the characters or situations in Huck Finn. I also took Mr. Twain's advice on the topic: when a librarian wrote him that Huck Finn had been removed from the children's section, he responded that he had written Huck Finn for adults and that he agreed it was not for children. Good enough for me! Very Happy

HindaRochel

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 11:50 am

Fox wrote:

zipporah wrote:

I disagree about the idea that if a child is too young to read it themselves, they couldn't understand it. I have found that not to be true, at least with my children.

aidelmaidel

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 12:32 pm

When we read "The Secret Garden" I tried to read it with an accent but my born and bred brooklynite kids didn't understand. I was frequently stopped and asked what words meant. Or they did not understand "the moore accent". It was very frustrating for me.

I'm finding this conversation fascinating.

My concern is that while my kids will likely understand the story of HF, I don't know how well my ADD kid will be able to remember not to use the N word in polite conversations, even with many conversations on my part.

Also my 6 yo does not read English yet (she is in an all Yiddish immersion class this year and will learn 2 years of English next year). She very much wants to read like her big sister (who has become an unstoppable reader). This is my compromise.

Fox

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 12:46 pm

aidelmaidel wrote:

This reminded me of my years of reading the Harry Potter books to my kids. They were, of course, enthralled with the story, but the reading was still a bit above them at the time. Not to mention that the length of the books was a bit daunting.

So, yes, yours truly actually read some of those tomes aloud, chapter after chapter after chapter. So when I discovered I could buy unabridged tapes/CDs and let Jim Dale do all the heavy lifting, I was delighted. My kids literally wore some of the tapes/CDs out, and in the process developed quite an ear for the various British accents that Dale uses to distinguish characters. They also read a couple of articles where Dale discussed the different types of accents he used and began picking out the differences on the tapes.

Fast forward a few years, and my girls came home from BY one day telling about a wonderful speaker, a well-known rav from England. Apparently many of the girls had difficulty understanding him, which was a mystery to my DDs, who had no trouble at all with his accent. My oldest commented derisively, "I mean, he wasn't that hard to understand. It wasn't like he was Welsh or even from the North or something."

And then it dawned on me: the Harry Potter tapes! The rav probably opened his mouth and my little darlings were transported to thoughts of Muggles and Potions Class!

mummiedearest

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 12:59 pm

aidelmaidel wrote:

"We had the sky, up there, all speckled with stars, and we used to lay on our backs and look up at them, and discuss about whether they was made, or only just happened."

That is a famous line from Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn.

Over the years I have taken to reading children's classics to my children at bedtime. I've read "The Secret Garden" and the "All of a Kind Family" books to my kids over ther years. About a chapter a night.

Since HF has come back in the news recently for the bowlderization(sp?) of the novel, (a publisher released a copy with every reference to the "N" word replaced with "Slave"), I have been thinking about reading it to my girls.

Of course my concern is the "N" word. I can not in good conscious censor the novel, but I am very very careful not to use the N word in regular conversation. I'm not sure how to go about discussing this with my kids and if they are capable of remembering. I can't tell you how many times I have to stop and correct my children when they use the word "[gentile]" derogatorily and tell the the proper word is "non-jew". I'm concerned they will feel they are getting mixed messages from me.

What do you think?

Please forgive the typos, I'm on a cell phone.

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat.

huck finn is one of my favorite books. I will not allow my children to read a censored version of it, I think that ruins it. yes, we know it has what is now considered objectionable language. I think preventing the kids from reading it in its original form is depriving them of an education in history. mark twain's books were specifically written in a dialect appropriate to the time and place. huck finn may be fiction, but it portrays historical truths. those called african-americans now would have been called "niggers" or "negroes" at the time. (let's see if the auto-editor does anything to that.) I would like to point out that "[N word]" may seem more derogatory than "[black person]," but that's how "[black person]" would have been pronounced within the dialect used in huck finn.

I would also like to point out that there was no such thing as political correctness at the time. in my mind, censoring this book is like changing the history books. changing history books for educational purposes has been done historically by communist governments and paranoid dictators. think about that if you will.

that being said, I think huck finn is a great opportunity to discuss appropriate language with students. students should know that using certain words in casual conversation is not appropriate, and that today's values are vastly different than the values of yesteryear. while I do not use the words "hell" and "darn" in casual conversation, I am aware that there are settings in which they are appropriate. context is everything. I would like my children to be aware of different contexts, and I have no intention of allowing them to read altered books. as far as I'm concerned, that's taking pc too far. next thing you know, they're going to remove any mention of indians from the laura ingalls books. (the ny public school system removed the little house books from their libraries years ago because of the negative view of native americans.) at what point will the line be drawn? history remains unchanged, no matter how we portray it.

zipporah

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:22 pm

The question isn't about teaching Huckleberry Finn, it's about when to teach it, and whether to read it at a young age with changes.

That we teach things from a different perspective for the young versus the more advanced is not inconsistent with a Torah approach to study: namely, Pshat, Remez, Drash and Sod. I'm not going to tell my first grader about Esther laying like dirt. I don't tell my kindergartner how much having a baby hurts.

It's your kid. But if you don't think the child is old enough to be left alone in the house because they might use poor judgement, I think it is not advisable to give them a word which used without thought could lead to some seriously detrimental interpersonal relationships.

aidelmaidel

Thu, Jan 13 2011, 1:51 pm

zipporah wrote: