STOP JUDGING PEOPLE BY WHAT POSSESSIONS THEY OWN!!!!!

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:40 pm

Tamiri wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

If I don't see what they have, I won't be tempted to judge. But that defeats the purpose, doesn't it? So that's why people put it all out there: so we can all see what they have. We are encouraged to do so by Western society, and people seem to be happy to oblige.

That was essentially my point, and then I will bow out of this discussion because I find it exhausting and frankly my desire not to sweep my steps is so great that I actually clicked on this so that I wouldn't have to do that.

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

ROFL. Sweep the stairs? That made me think you are sweeping leaves outside. Indoor stairs need water. Lots of water. Sweeping just shmears the shmutz. LOL

I can't use water because I will put myself in traction. I don't use a broom-- more like a scrub brush, and then every so often I will go at it with one of those mop cloth thingies with water, but not a lot. I collect a lot in my dustpan so I feel accomplished.

Tamiri

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:40 pm

Does anyone know the meaning of "understated elegance"? When you see a person who is able to afford that, you'll never feel the need to judge.

Tamiri

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:43 pm

cassandra wrote:

You clean them working backwards, leaning on the sponja stick for traction so you don't put yourself in traction. You can also get those microfiber shmattas, dip in water, swipe the stairs all the while going backwards down the stairs.
Or take the easy way out and pay someone to do it for you.

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:44 pm

Tamiri wrote:

Does anyone know the meaning of "understated elegance"? When you see a person who is able to afford that, you'll never feel the need to judge.

Like this, the plain 6k tote

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:45 pm

Tamiri wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Right, so I do that. Just not all the time... they look really good when I sweep!

Did I mention I live on four floors, with two flights of stairs per floor?

Fox

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:49 pm

Well, it depends on what you mean by "judging," and it depends on what you mean by "possessions."

Are we "judging" when we say, "Certain practices don't conform to the Torah guidelines that my family and teachers transmitted to me."? There are many situations in halacha and even more in minhag, hashkafa, and community practice, where practices that are appropriate for one group are not sanctioned for another. Acknowledging this is not necessarily "judging" in my mind.

However, I agree that there is often a very fine line between simply believing that one's derech is the best (you obviously wouldn't be following it if you didn't support it!) and engaging in unkind behavior toward others because you believe their darchim to be inferior to yours.

As for "possessions," it also depends on what we're discussing. Since many recent threads have focused on the consumption patterns of frum Yidden, especially in the U.S., I'll focus my response on that.

Living in any frum community requires sacrifices. None of us would be here if we were unwilling to make those sacrifices. On the part of the less affluent, one of the sacrifices is to work hard to eradicate jealousy of material success whenever possible.

However, the more affluent also have to sacrifice: in addition to bearing a greater burden of responsibility for the funding of communal needs, they must sacrifice by limiting their consumption so that their community does not suffer as a result of either jealousy or excessively high standards.

This is not simply a nice thing to do; this is halacha. And to the extent that people are unable or refuse to follow halachas, well, yes, they'll probably find that people will judge them.

In a perfect world, Mrs. Ploni would show her purchases to her DH, who might say, "You know, Sarahele, I'm not so sure a $16,000 Hermes handbag is so appropriate in our chevra. I'll call the rav." The rav would hear the story and poskin accordingly. The bag would either remain with Mrs. Ploni or be returned, but the rav could weigh whatever factors he thought appropriate in the individual case.

This is what we are asking for when we daven to have our judges returned to us (among other things). Not only has golus warped our own judgment in many matters; it has warped the judgment of our judges.

But how many people do you know at any economic level who regularly review with their rav whether they are using their wealth appropriately? It's a very rare thing in our times.

Quote:

An Anecdote
My DH often exhibits at conventions with other Jewish-oriented vendors, and his booth was next to that of a silversmith renowned for his Judaic artistry. The silversmith asked where my DH was from, mentioned a few of his clients in our city, and told an interesting story:

He visited a number of very, very wealthy people in our community, selling items that ranged in price from $5000 to $100,000. He sold a number of items to people who saw it as a way of promoting Jewish art and who had the means to do so. At one home, the wife particularly liked a kiddush cup priced at $30,000. The price was no problem whatsoever for this family, but the wife called her DH into the room for permission. He listened to the sales pitch and immediately took out his cell phone and called his rav, explained the situation, and asked whether they could purchase the item. The rav listened and asked several questions, eventually deciding that they could not make the purchase.

However, the silversmith was so impressed with the fact that this obviously wealthy man relied on his rav's opinion in these matters that he came back the next year with several other suggestions. The scene repeated itself, and this time the rav answered positively on one of the items -- of greater value.

Obviously, people have to use their own sechel; no one is suggesting that every new pair of socks has to be okayed by the rav. But the notion that we can spend however we want -- as long as we give plenty of tzeddekah -- is simply wrong.

Mrs. XYZ

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:53 pm

Quote:

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

True, many people buy quality stuff because of practicality, but many buy the latest stuff because they want to be considered as part of the upper-class, part of the "in" crowd.

(p.s. cassandra- except/accept. I wouldnt expect that of you Wink

)

saw50st8

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:55 pm

Can we add the other side also? Stop trying to match up to what others have.

[This will also likely swing towards people owning/buying less]

Fox

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:55 pm

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

True, many people buy quality stuff because of practicality, but many buy the latest stuff because they want to be considered as part of the upper-class, part of the "in" crowd.

Oh, that reminds me of one of my favorite David Sedaris quotes (I'm paraphrasing here): "I hate to be judged by my appearance, but the alternative is to be judged by my character."

LOL

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:55 pm

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

)

I moved to Israel, which means I don't speak two languages now.

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:58 pm

cassandra wrote:

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

)

I moved to Israel, which means I don't speak two languages now.

Wait- where did I do that?

amother

Jade

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 12:59 pm

Does my stuffed moose head on the living wall scare you?

Last edited by amother on Sat, Jan 02 2016, 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

cassandra

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 1:00 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

Does my stuffed moose head on the living wall scare you?

No, I admire your prowess, though I'd wonder why you are taking Tomchei Shabbos when you are a hunter.

Tamiri

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 1:15 pm

cassandra wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Does anyone know the meaning of "understated elegance"? When you see a person who is able to afford that, you'll never feel the need to judge.

Like this, the plain 6k tote

If I got that, people would think I bought it at the shuk in Rosh HaAyin. I'd have to display the price tag so they'd KNOW the bag is quality understated elegance.

Mrs. XYZ

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 1:18 pm

cassandra wrote:

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

To make a blanket statement in bold caps with multiple exclamation points, such as the one that was made, is really not fair to the masses of people who want to be judged by their possessions.

)

I moved to Israel, which means I don't speak two languages now.

Wait- where did I do that?

Quote:

I think we can think something about someone who excepts a large number of frivolous gifts, especially if they are struggling to feed their family.

Raisin

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 1:31 pm

If I see a person who is dressed very nicely, with an obviously expensive sheital, beautiful designer clothing, nice jewellery, I might not think she is rich. The sheital could have bought on sale, the jewellery is her kalla jewellery, and maybe its c.z, and maybe she has one or two nice peices of clothing, bought on sale, that she wears when she goes out.

But if I then follow her to her car and see it's a brand new expensive car, with her kids sitting inside playing with expensive electronic toys.

Ok, she might not be rich - she just has expensive taste and huge credit card bills. Or very generous relatives who love showering her with gifts.

Then I go to her house and see it is large house, expensively and impeccably furnished, spotless as well, despite her having several children.

So I would assume that she is rich. Or maybe she just lost her job, and she still owns all the expensive stuff she already bought.

But, if they were earning enough money to pay for all that, surely they have savings? surely they could downsize their house?

allrgymama

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 4:42 pm

@cassandra: my grandfather leases a new luxury car every year. Does he deserve to be frowned upon because of this?

I do realize that there's a generation gap, but everything is relative: just as I have contemporaries that I am envious of (in a 'I wish I could have that too' way, not a 'they don't deserve to have that' way) I'm sure my grandfather has contemporaries who feel negatively towards him.

Ultimately, (as far as I understand), halacha forbids giving more than a 1/5 of one's earnings to tzedakah; I'm sure there is a quite a number of individuals who can easily say that they do so and still have enough to buy nice things. As always, we need to focus on our own plates and not try to make chesbonos as to why people spend their money in certain ways because it isn't any of our business.

MommyZ

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 5:05 pm

This is understated elegance.

It's by Valentino and all together with the shoes costs $3,925. I wouldn't spend that kind of money in a million years but it looks very nice.

PinkFridge

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 6:44 pm

MommyZ wrote:

This is understated elegance.

It's by Valentino and all together with the shoes costs $3,925. I wouldn't spend that kind of money in a million years but it looks very nice.

You know the joke, one melamed says to the other, If I were Rothschild I'd be richer than Rothschild.
- Nu, how?
Because I'd teach a little on the side.

I could make $3,925 go much further. Just try me.

kitov

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 7:34 pm

Mommyz, me likes that suit, who makes a cheaper knockoff?