STOP JUDGING PEOPLE BY WHAT POSSESSIONS THEY OWN!!!!!

Ronit

Thu, Feb 10 2011, 10:35 pm

Mitzvahmom wrote:

cassandra wrote:

So we've concluded that we shouldn't judge people by one possession, because that might of been a gift, but how about a collection of possessions?

I think we can think something about someone who excepts a large number of frivolous gifts, especially if they are struggling to feed their family.

why is this an exception??? What if one organization gives a child a scooter, and another one gives the same child a video game?? What if an agency gives the parents a huge pile of clothing, all new. your going to judge them because of this?

I think the point of this entire post is that we do not know what is going on behind closed doors of people's homes.. Maybe they have parents that do not want to help them financially, but they are willing to take our their grandchildren and spoil them. Parents/grandparents do weird things like that, my family does. made me nutz as a single mom, I could have used the money they were spending on STUPID things, but I am not them and I cannot force them to give me the money instead of spending it on stupid things.

Until we can walk in each other's shoes we cannot judge..

I've gotten comments on HANDMEDOWNS my children where wearing. My mil gives me her two youngest kids clothes when they are done with it. Turns out that many of the things are in good condition & are matching. The sizes work perfectly for my kids. Yes I like nice things & it's a big help for us so of course I accept. I can't stand when people are so judgemental. Sometimes they are expensive brands, not davka showy, but people notice what they want to.

I totaly understand what mitzvamom is saying, because I know many grandparents like that.

amother

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 12:00 am

Dh and I have had this happen to us. We once had an accident with the exterior of our house, so our homeowners insurance paid for it, and when we were redoing our house, we got a ridiculous number of comments from people in our community about all of the work that we were doing on our home.

We're also one of those people who the grandparents like to give fancy gifts to, but they would never give us financial asistance for necessities (trust me, we once asked them and boy did we get a whopping). So while our kids have fancy shabbos clothes, and we have multiple computers, a beautiful silver collection, and some very nice pieces of jewelry, (among other things) we often don't have two extra pennies to rub together.

I'm sure that people think that we're rolling in dough, and we get hit-up a lot for tzedakahs in our community, and people give us looks of disbelief when we tell them that we can't afford to give more than X amount. It is very embarrassing.

Mommyme1

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 3:52 am

MommyZ wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

This is understated elegance.

It's by Valentino and all together with the shoes costs $3,925. I wouldn't spend that kind of money in a million years but it looks very nice.

You know the joke, one melamed says to the other, If I were Rothschild I'd be richer than Rothschild.
- Nu, how?
Because I'd teach a little on the side.

I could make $3,925 go much further. Just try me.

What part of "I wouldn't send spend that kind of money in a million years" did you not understand? lol

When I used to go shopping for clothes (wow - it's been a long time Smile

) and saw something expensive, I'd pretend I was considering buying it and then say - "Nah, I'd rather another month in Kollel."

That outfit would finance at least 2 months in Kollel. Smile

ora_43

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 5:45 am

There are two things I don't understand about getting presents from family. I get that often relatives give whatever they want to give, even if the family could use cash, not fancy plates or whatever else.

But once the stuff has been given, why not sell it? If you warn your relatives in advance, "we really don't need fancy stuff right now, and if we get any we'll sell it to pay tuition" (or whatever), why not?

And if selling it isn't possible because it would hurt shalom bayit too much (although I think it'd make sense to consult a rav, if it were a question of paying off debts or something), why use it at all? If a relative buys us something regular-nice like a shabbos dress for a child we'll use it, but if they were to send something fancy-nice, I wouldn't wear it around outside, not in a neighborhood like this.

I'm assuming that other people who are struggling financially are also living in lower-class/lower-middle-class areas, where going outside with nice jewelry on or displaying silver in your home could draw attention. So why do it?

Like cassandra said, many of the people who buy/wear/display certain things are davka trying to give a sense of wealth. The entire purpose of wearing, say, a diamond instead of any other sparkly rock is the money involved, there is literally no other reason for it.

So I don't think it's realistic to say that people should just ignore the signs of wealth that you show them. That's like saying that people should be free to go around in miniskirts without anyone assuming that they aren't very frum, or without anyone thinking s-xual thoughts about them or flirting - in theory maybe there's something to it, but let's be realistic, most people intend for their clothes (and their possessions) to send a certain message (consciously or not), and it's natural for others to assume that you're doing the same.

Raisin

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 6:07 am

allrgymama wrote:

@cassandra: my grandfather leases a new luxury car every year. Does he deserve to be frowned upon because of this?

I do realize that there's a generation gap, but everything is relative: just as I have contemporaries that I am envious of (in a 'I wish I could have that too' way, not a 'they don't deserve to have that' way) I'm sure my grandfather has contemporaries who feel negatively towards him.

Ultimately, (as far as I understand), halacha forbids giving more than a 1/5 of one's earnings to tzedakah; I'm sure there is a quite a number of individuals who can easily say that they do so and still have enough to buy nice things. As always, we need to focus on our own plates and not try to make chesbonos as to why people spend their money in certain ways because it isn't any of our business.

there is nothing wrong with that if he can afford it and that is what he wants to do with his money. But if he would then go and ask for tzedaka because all his money is going on car payments and he can't afford heat and food, I think the tzedaka committee has a right to say no.

OTOH he should not be asked to sell his laptop and silver menora to pay his food and heat bills.

(this thread is a spinoff from the one about tomchei shabbos, where someone was delivering a box of food to house filled with the latest electronic gadgets)

Raisin

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 6:16 am

btw most people are not shy to say where something comes from.

"Your daughters coat is gorgeous, wow, I see it's armani."

"Thanks, my neice outgrew it and my sil gave it to me. I would never spend this much on a coat myself, but I love it"

(I had a very very wealthy friend who was not a bit embarrassed to tell me some of her dd's clothes were hand me downs. Beautiful hand me downs.)

"I see you are getting your house decorated."

"Yes, bh for insurance! We had a flood last month which was a disaster at the time, but now we get a brand new dining room"

Not everything we buy is becasue it looks expensive. I aim to look nicely dressed. If that can be acheived with clothes from an inexpensive store, great. Usually I need to buy more expensive clothing.

That suit for $3000 mommyz posted - I am quite sure you could acheive a very similar effect with a suit costing $200.

Barbara

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 7:56 am

I don't *judge* But I do gather information about people based on certain external factors.

I haven't seen Ruchel in months. She's wearing a sheilt. She must have gotten married. Mazel tov.

Miri used to wear suits and heels every day, and now I see her running around in a jeans skirt and tee shirt. I wonder if she's not working.

Adina lives in a $2 million house and her kids have the latest of everything. I think I'll offer my kids' hand me downs to Yehudit instead; she's in a 2 bedroom apartment with 4 kids, and wears the same dress every Shabbat.

Sure, maybe Adina inherited the house, and her parents insist upon buying the kids the latest things, even though they've been living on rice and beans for the past 6 months, but its simply not likely. *Most* reasonable people will not insist upon gifting frivolities on a regular basis when there's a real problem of making ends meet. Sure, they might give one of two over the top items -- an incredible stroller, or a sheitl to a kallah -- to a marginal family. But I cannot imagine a loving relative telling someone *I don't care that you don't have enough food to eat, and the heat was turned off. If you try to return the Neiman Marcus coat I bought little Rafi so you can pay the water company and have running water again, I just won't give you anything*

amother

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 7:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

So, you're saying that just because my children have "too fancy" clothes, I should not let them wear it, and then have to spend money that I don't have on new clothes for them!!! Or because we have a fancy becher or silver washing cup, I should hide them away and have to buy new ones. Or the new bugaboo stroller that my in-laws gave us (even though I asked for a cheaper stroller) should sit in storage and I now have to buy a stroller for myself!?

You're basically judging other people based on your personal feelings on the subject, which is the whole point of the original post, which is JUST DONT DO IT AT ALL!!! You never know what a person's situation is. Just because you've decided that using expensive things in public means that people want you to see it, doesn't mean that it it's so.

And yes, I would say that most grandparents who refuse to give money in lieu of gifts (especially ours), would be very upset if you tried to sell their gifts once they were given, as well as be very upset if you didn't display and/or use their gifts. What do you think they would say if they came over and saw that the new computer they got us, was not set-up on the desk, or if I didn't wear the new earrings they got me etc... (Granted, I really don't think it's nice for grandparents to do that to their children, but I'm certainly not going to spit on their gifts and make my financial situation even harder.)

I agree unequivocally: STOP JUDGING PEOPLE BY WHAT POSSESSIONS THEY OWN!

Barbara

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 8:03 am

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

I am curious. If you really -- and I mean really -- needed the money, would they help you, or would they insist upon the frivolous gifts? If, for example, you sais *Bubbe, they turned off our water. We can't even flush. Could you possible buy Ploni's new outfit at Target, and give us the differnce so that we can have the water turned back on* would they say no? If you returned the outfit and explained why, would they disown you?

I'm not judging. But having new expensive earrings, a sterling washing cup, fancey expensive becher, new computer, and high-end clothes certainly creates the impresison that there are assets that are available.

Tamiri

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 8:14 am

Barbara wrote:

But I cannot imagine a loving relative telling someone *I don't care that you don't have enough food to eat, and the heat was turned off. If you try to return the Neiman Marcus coat I bought little Rafi so you can pay the water company and have running water again, I just won't give you anything*

Maybe they aren't really loving... true story: when DH was still a student and we were expecting #3, his father came to visit us from Israel (we were in the U.S.). At that time, we were not paying full tuition for the kid we had in school. FIL saw we had no TV and told us that it's not how cultured people live, and he was going to buy us one (our old one had broken and we didn't think that spending money on a new one was prudent). We told him our sitch and that we'd prefer to give money to the school. I think it was like $300 for a TV back then. He said absolutely not, and got the d*^@ TV anyway. Which I returned for money LOL

(I'm not obedient). I can see where family would insist on having their children live a "cultured" or "decent" life and not be willing to contribute where it really matters. You can't expect people to sell a house like we returned the TV. Anyway, just saying.... there are idiots out there with a skewed set of values. And they want to give what THEY want to give, not what the recipients want or need.

amother

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 8:25 am

Barbara wrote:

Seems like you have never met my in laws.
I live in a brand new house value of almost a million dollars (one of my fil's apts.) He paid for our furniture. My parents insistedon buying us a bugaboo only (when my father's business was still doing well) Both sets parents would occasionally the kids new clothes. Mostly brand name. The rest of my kids clothes are hand me downs mostly brand names too. I have a burberry maclaren that I found on craigslist which was cheaper than other not such pretty ones. (my parents paid half. They bussiness wasn't running well at that point). But when our gas and electricity was cut off my inlaws refused to give a red cent and my parents at that point couldn't afford to give us anything either. There was a point in our lives that we had absolutely no food at home. (yes in our fancy home). My husband went to most simchas to be able to have a decent supper until B"H we finally applied for food stamps. So here you have my story.

amother

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 8:26 am

Barbara wrote:

Barbara, you bring up something that has caused my dh and I much pain and tears over the years. B"h it's never come down to anything being turned off, but there were plenty of times that we couldn't afford our utility bills for a month or ask a school to wait another few week/months for the tuition payments (a very embarrassing scene). We watch our money very carefully and while we scrape by, we get ourselves no extras.

Let me tell you that we've had the conversations that you mentioned above, and they never end well for us. My in-laws get very upset at any perceived criticism or rejection, and they also adamantly believe that parents do not "support" their children. They're not wealthy per se, but they're very comfortable financially and they like to spend what they have.

I've tried the "sneakier" route and when I knew that new clothes were going to be coming for my kids, I asked them for the money so that I could go shopping to buy the things (having in mind to buy cheap things and pocket the difference) but my mil insists on doing it herself, and guess what, she likes to shop in fancy stores. For anniversaries and birthdays, we've asked a million times for money as gifts, but they do not want to do that. They say they like buying us gifts.

Maybe they have control issues, who knows, but there is no way that I'm going to deny my family those things and then have to spend extra money (which would be impossible for us right now), just to make sure that other people don't judge me in a certain way.

kitov

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 8:29 am

cassandra wrote:

Ah, but you returned the tv.

I think a house is different because it's a very long term useful thing. I also think that I wouldn't think much of someone who isn't well off but has one or two nice things but I would think something if they have many expensive things and their overall appearance was also such.

I also would not feel this way about people who suddenly fell on hard times.

The thread title was stlon from a poster responding to such a situation: a family who owned the latest in gaming and dvd and tv, but accepted tomchei shabbos.

Now come to think of it, maybe that said family has a sick family member, and one of the chessed orgs lent it for them until he feels better, and all their money goes for medical bills, so they don't have money for food?

That whole thread confused me a bit, since in my circles it's such busha to accept tomchei shabbos, that I can't see a person just accepting their food solely because it's free. I can see it rather as a person must have been so desperate and broke that he was left with no choice but to ask for food.