STOP JUDGING PEOPLE BY WHAT POSSESSIONS THEY OWN!!!!!

Raisin

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 9:03 am

bugaboos sell very well on ebay and craigslist. (In fact, I know someone who is looking for a second hand bugaboo)

you could certainly sell it and buy something much cheaper either new or second hand and you would have a few hundred dollars in change.

tamiri, did your fil know you returned the TV? And if so, was he upset?

(and what is cultured about a TV? LOL

)

The problem is with these types of parents is I can imagine them getting upset you exchanged something and simply stopping buying you things altogether. In which case you will be even worse off, since you have to buy the clothes yourself.

Anyway, anyone with this problem - imagine there are some people who do not have grandparents throwing gifts at them. No one buys my kids clothes except me, except on very rare occasions.

saw50st8

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 9:07 am

Tamiri wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Ah, but you returned the tv.

.

I have an overly sensitive sense of guilt. I couldn't ask for help for school (we were living on less than $1500/month at the time) and have the "luxury" of a new TV. Which is why so many posts here bother me. People seem to have lost sense of propriety. I've been there. I've done that. Why is anyone so different than I am? I was EMBARRASSED to be seen spending more than 79c/lb on chicken legs. And my cholent had bones for flavor. We didn't even realize we were poor, because many of those around us, including people with means, lived simple lives.
Which brings us back to the Jewish values threads....

Tamiri, I knew there was always a reason I liked you :-)

Raisin

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 9:55 am

Tamiri wrote:

Raisin wrote:

tamiri, did your fil know you returned the TV? And if so, was he upset?

(and what is cultured about a TV? LOL

)

Raisin, I really didn't care. In fact, I HOPE he was upset. If you don't know what is cultured about a TV, I can't talk to you. You are probably too uncultured to understand. Right now, he's up to 52 inch flat screen built into it's very own niche in the living room (parlor, salon) - that's considered SUPER cultured these days. What rock do you live under?

I thought high culture=books, theatre, opera, classical music, etc low culture=tv, movies, trashy books, pop music.

In fact the most cultured people I know do not let their kids watch a lot of TV.

Of course, the height of high culture is to own a very expensive tv set but claim you do not have time to watch it becasue you are so busy reading, listening to music, and going to the theatre.

Fox

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 11:32 am

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

In a perfect world, Mrs. Ploni would show her purchases to her DH, who might say, "You know, Sarahele, I'm not so sure a $16,000 Hermes handbag is so appropriate in our chevra. I'll call the rav." The rav would hear the story and poskin accordingly. The bag would either remain with Mrs. Ploni or be returned, but the rav could weigh whatever factors he thought appropriate in the individual case."

Why in the world would you call a Rav? Why can't you make an intelligent decision on your own? Why can't YOU weight the factors? Aseh Lehca Rav right? But isn't this taking it a little far? Do you ask your Rav if your Shabbos menu is appropriate in your chevra? Where do you step in and take some responsibility for your decisions? I DONT GET IT.

You couldn't have made my point for me any better!

Let's go back and read what I actually wrote:

Fox wrote:

This is what we are asking for when we daven to have our judges returned to us (among other things). Not only has golus warped our own judgment in many matters; it has warped the judgment of our judges.

But how many people do you know at any economic level who regularly review with their rav whether they are using their wealth appropriately? It's a very rare thing in our times.
Obviously, people have to use their own sechel; no one is suggesting that every new pair of socks has to be okayed by the rav. But the notion that we can spend however we want -- as long as we give plenty of tzeddekah -- is simply wrong.

But let me address your questions:

Why can’t I make an intelligent decision on my own? Why can’t I weigh the factors? Because it is human nature to rationalize ways to do what we want – even when it’s not the right thing to do. And I am certainly not immune to that. Nor are you. That is why we must seek an outside opinion. In many – even most – cases, that will be a spouse, family member, or friend. But if that individual is uncertain, he/she should suggest calling a rav.

Do I ask the rav to approve my Shabbos menu? No, but if I were going significantly overboard or doing too little, I hope my DH would say something to me. And if he were uncertain or if we disagreed in some meaningful way over the matter, we would most definitely ask a rav.

You ask when one should take responsibility for one’s decisions. I would suggest that you are asking the wrong question. I am not interested in taking responsibility for decisions; I am interested in taking responsibility for doing the right thing.

I don’t call a physician every time someone in my house has a sore throat. But if the person is running a high fever for several days and showing signs of bacterial infection, I don’t take pride in “taking responsibility” for treating him/her. I get on the phone and get some expert advice!

MommyZ

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 1:54 pm

Raisin wrote:

btw most people are not shy to say where something comes from.

"Your daughters coat is gorgeous, wow, I see it's armani."

"Thanks, my neice outgrew it and my sil gave it to me. I would never spend this much on a coat myself, but I love it"

(I had a very very wealthy friend who was not a bit embarrassed to tell me some of her dd's clothes were hand me downs. Beautiful hand me downs.)

"I see you are getting your house decorated."

"Yes, bh for insurance! We had a flood last month which was a disaster at the time, but now we get a brand new dining room"

Not everything we buy is becasue it looks expensive. I aim to look nicely dressed. If that can be acheived with clothes from an inexpensive store, great. Usually I need to buy more expensive clothing.

That suit for $3000 mommyz posted - I am quite sure you could acheive a very similar effect with a suit costing $200.

Maybe although I looked pretty hard and couldn't find anything in that exact style. I wouldn't buy it anyway even if I had the money. I'm not comfortable spending that kind of money. I was simply making the point that a very expensive outfit can look understated and very elegant.

Barbara

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I don't *judge* But I do gather information about people based on certain external factors.

I haven't seen Ruchel in months. She's wearing a sheilt. She must have gotten married. Mazel tov.

Miri used to wear suits and heels every day, and now I see her running around in a jeans skirt and tee shirt. I wonder if she's not working.

Adina lives in a $2 million house and her kids have the latest of everything. I think I'll offer my kids' hand me downs to Yehudit instead; she's in a 2 bedroom apartment with 4 kids, and wears the same dress every Shabbat.

Sure, maybe Adina inherited the house, and her parents insist upon buying the kids the latest things, even though they've been living on rice and beans for the past 6 months, but its simply not likely. *Most* reasonable people will not insist upon gifting frivolities on a regular basis when there's a real problem of making ends meet. Sure, they might give one of two over the top items -- an incredible stroller, or a sheitl to a kallah -- to a marginal family. But I cannot imagine a loving relative telling someone *I don't care that you don't have enough food to eat, and the heat was turned off. If you try to return the Neiman Marcus coat I bought little Rafi so you can pay the water company and have running water again, I just won't give you anything*

Seems like you have never met my in laws.
I live in a brand new house value of almost a million dollars (one of my fil's apts.) He paid for our furniture. My parents insistedon buying us a bugaboo only (when my father's business was still doing well) Both sets parents would occasionally the kids new clothes. Mostly brand name. The rest of my kids clothes are hand me downs mostly brand names too. I have a burberry maclaren that I found on craigslist which was cheaper than other not such pretty ones. (my parents paid half. They bussiness wasn't running well at that point). But when our gas and electricity was cut off my inlaws refused to give a red cent and my parents at that point couldn't afford to give us anything either. There was a point in our lives that we had absolutely no food at home. (yes in our fancy home). My husband went to most simchas to be able to have a decent supper until B"H we finally applied for food stamps. So here you have my story.

I assume that the home isn't in your name, and that they pay the mortgage?

Their priorities are skewed, which saddens me. I understand the concept of wanting to treat your kids to something that they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford and enjoy, and don't see anything wrong with it per se. Eg, when I bought my first home, it had a truly hideous kitchen fixture. My dad did the walk-through with me, and his only comment was *that's really ugly, you need a new one* When my mom (z"l) came over after the closing, she said *the place is beautiful, but you need a new kitchen fixture* No, they hadn't talked about it. When I said it wasn't on my list of priorities, they showed up with a catalog and said *pick one* It arrived and was installed a week later. But I wasn't in a situation where I couldn't pay bills, or have enough to eat. And it was one thing.

Not directed to you, though, but here's a question for all of you who say that its wrong to form an opinion of someone's means bases upon their possessions. Do you form an opinion of frumkeit based on their attire? If Mrs. Ploni used to wear mid-calf skirts and shirts buttoned to the top, and now wears losse-fitting trousers and jewel neck tees, do you have an opinion? Or do you simply say *oh, Mrs. Ploni went shopping* And what if its Mrs. Ploni's daughter, Plonietta, and she's wearing jeans and a Jay-Z tee shirt? Do you have any thoughts on her?

amother

Fri, Feb 11 2011, 3:29 pm

Tamiri wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But I cannot imagine a loving relative telling someone *I don't care that you don't have enough food to eat, and the heat was turned off. If you try to return the Neiman Marcus coat I bought little Rafi so you can pay the water company and have running water again, I just won't give you anything*

Maybe they aren't really loving... true story: when DH was still a student and we were expecting #3, his father came to visit us from Israel (we were in the U.S.). At that time, we were not paying full tuition for the kid we had in school. FIL saw we had no TV and told us that it's not how cultured people live, and he was going to buy us one (our old one had broken and we didn't think that spending money on a new one was prudent). We told him our sitch and that we'd prefer to give money to the school. I think it was like $300 for a TV back then. He said absolutely not, and got the d*^@ TV anyway. Which I returned for money LOL

(I'm not obedient). I can see where family would insist on having their children live a "cultured" or "decent" life and not be willing to contribute where it really matters. You can't expect people to sell a house like we returned the TV. Anyway, just saying.... there are idiots out there with a skewed set of values. And they want to give what THEY want to give, not what the recipients want or need.

You were able to return the TV only because your dad lived in Israel.
Had he lived near you and come to visit every week, he would have killed you if he didn't see the TV set up.

ora_43

Sat, Feb 12 2011, 1:13 pm

amother wrote:

So, you're saying that just because my children have "too fancy" clothes, I should not let them wear it, and then have to spend money that I don't have on new clothes for them!!! Or because we have a fancy becher or silver washing cup, I should hide them away and have to buy new ones. Or the new bugaboo stroller that my in-laws gave us (even though I asked for a cheaper stroller) should sit in storage and I now have to buy a stroller for myself!?

You're basically judging other people based on your personal feelings on the subject, which is the whole point of the original post, which is JUST DONT DO IT AT ALL!!! You never know what a person's situation is. Just because you've decided that using expensive things in public means that people want you to see it, doesn't mean that it it's so.

And yes, I would say that most grandparents who refuse to give money in lieu of gifts (especially ours), would be very upset if you tried to sell their gifts once they were given, as well as be very upset if you didn't display and/or use their gifts. What do you think they would say if they came over and saw that the new computer they got us, was not set-up on the desk, or if I didn't wear the new earrings they got me etc... (Granted, I really don't think it's nice for grandparents to do that to their children, but I'm certainly not going to spit on their gifts and make my financial situation even harder.)

I agree unequivocally: STOP JUDGING PEOPLE BY WHAT POSSESSIONS THEY OWN!

Chill, amother. I'm not saying you have to do anything. Go ahead and let your kids wear fancy clothes, and display your silver, and whatever else.

Just realize that if you allow people to see that you own unusually expensive things, they'll assume you can afford expensive things. I don't think it's fair to call that being judgmental. As Barbara and cassandra have said, it's natural for people to form impressions of others. Those impressions are often a good thing - for instance, it's good that we can look at a person in a small house with tattered clothes and shoes and realize "hmm it looks like that person could use some help."

I didn't say that you, personally, decided that displaying fancy things means you want people to think you can afford them. But society, as a whole, works that way. The whole point of the existence of such things as diamonds or silver or a $3,000 suit is that they look "fancy," meaning it looks like the owner has plenty of money.

Maybe you want to use silver just because it looks nice to you, or because it's all you own, but it's not realistic to expect everyone who sees you not have any kind of reaction. That's be like me going out of the house in thick tights, a navy blue suit, black pumps, and a snood, then getting annoyed because "why are people assuming I'm hareidi, they shouldn't judge me by my clothing."

Mommyme1

Sat, Feb 12 2011, 6:58 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

You couldn't have made my point for me any better!

Let's go back and read what I actually wrote:

Fox wrote: