Going to secular college--advice please!

amother

Mon, Mar 21 2011, 10:01 pm

I've decided to go to school for a master's in speech therapy, I'm starting prereqs in May, but I'm getting nervous and would love some advice from anyone who's been in secular college.

How friendly were you with the other students? How did you handle working with male partners? Did you attend classes on Chol Hamoed? Did you find that not socializing with your classmates outside of class had a negative impact? How did you make time to study?

I have a bunch of young children, ka"h, and am really wondering how this is all going to work out. I know it's going to be okay, but I'm just getting a little anxious trying to visualize how things will go, and would really love any pointers you could give me. Thanks! Very Happy

(Anon because people on here know me, and I haven't told anyone IRL yet.)

Mitzvahmom

Mon, Mar 21 2011, 10:07 pm

Um welcome to college first of all.

If your in a specialized program, you will become close with your classmates. Especially if your in classes semester after semester...

I honestly did not get to know my classmates until I was in nursing school. Just because I would be spending the next 2 years with them in nursing classes.

Believe me it's better if your friendly, because if you miss lecture they will record/give you a copy of their lecture notes and that was a life saver!!

I go during chol hamoed, because well no choice, I am lucky they let me miss as much as they do! Because in the nursing handbook it says 2 absences means immediate out of nursing school. B"H they made an exception. On that note, speak with your teachers, be open and honest. Show them that your prepared, with a letter and dates and your plan of study when missing these dates. That you have fellow students willing to forward you lecture/recording so that you will remain active in class.

hatzlocha.. BTW in my nursing school there are 5 of us frummies, and B"H we make due. We are all in different levels, so we give advice as we come to those levels to those behind to help guide them.

Also on a side note, the men are a major help in nursing school. Especially if you have a heavy patient Smile

Last edited by Mitzvahmom on Mon, Mar 21 2011, 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

morah

Mon, Mar 21 2011, 10:18 pm

I really stick out b/c in addition to long skirts, tights and high necklines etc I only wear tichels, but I don't care; if you don't walk around looking self-conscious, no one will really notice. I've only been asked twice about how I dress, and it was out of genuine interest, not because I'm a creature in a zoo.

In terms of socializing, it is important to have friends who you can study with and who can help you when you miss class for YT. No, I don't go to casual events, but neither do I come to school for class and leave the second it's over. I did that my first semester and it really hurt me. I go to school sanctioned events when I can.

Most programs/professors are cool with YT- at least if you're in NY, where they've all heard of it. However, don't expect anything more than not getting penalized for the absences. You will otherwise be responsible for making up all work, and if an assignment is due Motzei YT, don't expect an extension, expect to get it done before YT. You will probably have to go to school chol hamoed- if you don't write, then you go to class and sit there without taking notes- it's annoying, but nobody cares whether or not you're taking notes, just that you're showing up.

iluvy

Mon, Mar 21 2011, 10:42 pm

I second what morah said about the importance of socializing. Besides for the practical aspects she mentioned, you will be miserable if you spend the next 4 (?) years in college without anyone to even smile to. I kept to myself completely as an undergrad, and it was a mistake. Now, I go to events that take place during school hours, and I have a friendly relationship with everyone in my group. MUCH more pleasant. No, I don't go drinking with them at night, but as an old married lady with a family, I'm not expected to. So we're not biffers and we don't spend hours on the phone. We're colleagues.

Working with male classmates is exactly the same as working with female classmates. And I'm saying this as a bais yaakov girl who never spoke to any boy who was not a blood relation.

I dress in a similar "yeshivish" style, and I never feel like I stand out. I just feel like I'm the best-dressed person in the room Smile

. The thing about college, esp. in New York, is that it's really hard to stand out. You're wearing a tichel, and Arthi's wearing a sari, and Heba is wearing a hijab. You think Yocheved is hard to pronounce? Try Xiao, or Yvegny, or Guyar. If you think kashrus is strict, try finding a good halal hechsher, or ordering lunch for a vegan. You're not the weird one. Victor with the antlers and the bifurcated tongue is the weird one.

cbsmommy

Mon, Mar 21 2011, 11:19 pm

So there are a couple of things I want to mention.

Tell the professor AND the TA day 1 about Shabbos and YT. Explain what Shabbos and YT is (if need be) and if an assignment is due Friday at midnight and Shabbos is at 5:40, expect to turn in the assignment by 5:40, rather than receiving an extension.

Also, if a class meets M,W, and F from 3-5, you likely will not be able to take that class during the spring or fall semesters when Shabbos is earlier. There are always exceptions (like when that is the only time that class is offered), but you might need to take certain classes DAVKA in the summer. I personally found that it was much much easier to take the more difficult classes in the summer b/c I didn't have YT requiring me to miss 3 weeks of classes.

I completely agree that you NEED NEED NEED at least 1 or 2 friends in every class that are willing to take notes for you and to be 'study buddies'. Make sure to double check that your study buddy is truly not Jewish. There are a number of shailos involved if your study buddy is a secular Jew taking notes for you on YT.

As for working with guys, we didn't meet after class for beer, and if we were on a project together we made sure to meet at the Starbucks on campus (or similar) rather than at somebody's apartment (always a risky choice), but we worked together. Like co-workers. Because we were co-workers. I was clear from the beginnning that for religious purposes, I don't shake hands, no touching, no singing, and I usually brought my own bagged lunch to meetings. For the most part, a guy who is serious about college classes and good grades, has already had a muslim girl as a partner last semester, or is slightly more tactful. If a guy is being innapropriate, take your complaint to a higher power. IMMEDIATELY. Don't just shrug it off. S@xual harrasment is illegal in this country and college campuses are not an exception!

That being said, I'm not sure where you are located, but many colleges/universities have a Hillel. Try to meet and have the Hillel staff recognize you by name. There are a couple of reasons for this:
1) My personal experience was that although LEGALLY a professor HAS to accomodate you for religion (s/he cannot just say that you are only required to take 2 tests and the lowest score is dropped for your 3rd test so you cannot make up the major exam on YT) they don't always easily acquiese. Sometimes bringing in a Hillel representative (who's been there, done that, knows the Dean) can do wonders.
2) Although anti-semitism isn't SUPPOSED to happen, I was in a class where two girls were making my life absolutely miserable because of the fact that I am frum (one of the girls was a secular Jew). We were supposed to work on an assigned project together and they refused to include me in group meetings by scheduling them for Shabbos and YT, not replying to phone calls and emails, posting lewd images on my facebook page, general nastiness, etc. Because it didn't always happen in a specific class, I couldn't just go to a professor, I had to also go to the Dean. Being able to rely on people at the Hillel for backup and support, was really helpful.

DrMom

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 3:24 am

cbsmommy wrote:

Tell the professor AND the TA day 1 about Shabbos and YT. Explain what Shabbos and YT is (if need be) and if an assignment is due Friday at midnight and Shabbos is at 5:40, expect to turn in the assignment by 5:40, rather than receiving an extension.

^^This. Be up front about this as early as possible. Provide the professor/TAs witha written schedule of all YT dates. Don't expect them to remember them -- as each date approaches, ask the TA about upcoming assignments and remind him/her about the YT issue.

Be exemplary and polite. It will help you build up credibility if you ever need them to make an exception for you.

Don't worry too much about clothing. There is a wide range of fashions and cultural dress on campuses these days. Yes, you will stand out a bit, but in a positive way. It'll make a much better impression on your TAs and prof than someone who stands out for having 300 tattoos and piercings!

Try and make friends. Most people will eventually get past the clothing differences and treat you like a human being, although it may take time for them to warm up to you.

eschaya

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 10:00 am

OP, first of all, hatzlacha and lots of success to you.
And not to put on any more pressure, but realize that not only are you there to get your degree, you have the unique opportunity to make a wonderful kiddush Hashem.
I agree with most other posters. Clothing will not be an issue. Worst case... you will stand out for being noble and dignified. I wore a tichel throughout nursing school - and got many compliments on them! And surprisingly, in our second semester of school, when we were about to start our clinical rotations, we actually got a tznius lecture from a professor, basically stating that the way we dress is a representation of our profession, and we want to give a dignified, professional look! And then she proceeded to give some examples of looks that were innapropriate for our profession (ie; wear a shirt under scrubs so no cleavage when you bend over patients, etc.) There you have it... a wonderful tznius lecture from non-Jew to a room full of American diversity.
Do make connections with fellow students. No, you don't need to go to any parties, but join a group during lunch, be proactive about working with others, offer aid to others. You'll be surprised... not only will it be practically helpful and a kiddush Hashem, but it will make your days more pleasant.
About the guys, never really had a problem. You can have minimal professional relationships... remember, this is grad school, not a bunch of 18 year olds.
With regard to Shabbos and YT, just a piece of advice. Yes, institutions can't penalize you for not coming in on YT or doing work then. But remember, don't appear like you are always a taker. Instead of asking for an extension on a project, hand it in early. Offer to come in on eruv YT to take the test scheduled for YT (instead of asking to take it late). Make up a shift/class you miss, go over to the teacher and make it obvious that you intend to make up the content completely. It will make it hard for you, but they will look a frum Jews in a better light, and it will help you in the long run if you ever really do need an extension or exception. And never blame your failure on your religion or kids!! ("I got this D because I was so busy preparing for my holiday and I have lots of kids so I just couldn't focus and then I was in synagogue all day and didn't have time to study..."). I made the mistake early on in my education of asking a teacher (who was not a fan of Jews) if I could do my clinical at a hospital closer to my house, because I have 3 kids and it's hard not being able to see them all day and I need a rotation that doesn't meet on Fri, Sat, or Sun..." Anyway, she basically told me that it was my problem for having kids, and how am I going to be able to get a nursing job if I tell them that I can't work Friday or Saturday, and that she has no sympathy, etc. She actually said it in a pretty nasty way (other nearby students were shocked). In any case, I just sucked it up, worked really hard, barely saw my kids, made sure that being a frum mother in no way compromised my ability as a student... and graduated at the top of my class. This very same teacher became a big fan of mine and actually wrote a letter of recommendation for me that helped me land a job even before I graduated. And she was nicer to the frum girls after me, I guess because she saw that we are not looking to use our religion as a way out (as she initially implied). Oh, and my kids survived too.
Wow, sorry for the megillah.
Lots of luck, and I'm really happy for you.

Ruchel

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 10:07 am

After 8 years in 3 different schools:

Quote:

How friendly were you with the other students?

Like with a classmate or a friend, depending on the situation

Quote:

How did you handle working with male partners?

Like with a girl, just no touching.

Quote:

Did you attend classes on Chol Hamoed?

Yes

Quote:

Did you find that not socializing with your classmates outside of class had a negative impact?

They didn't really either, for most. If you're a mom you have even more excuses.

Dress as you want!!!

Please explain about not being to attend or to write on shabbes and yomtov. Hopefully you'll be allowed to catch the exams. Some places won't, though, and you may get 0 if the teacher is really nasty.

michal817

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 10:42 am

There's already a lot of really good advice here, but I wanted to add my two cents:

1) Don't worry about clothing. In my program, which has mostly evening classes, I find that a lot of people come in slightly more formal clothing (business casual) because they come straight from work, so while you may be the only one wearing a skirt, you probably won't be the only one dressed up.

2) About forming relationships with your classmates - you definitely need to socialize and be friendly! Not only can they help you with missed notes and studying, but they are your future colleagues in the field. You may find yourself calling them for advice when you have a difficult case down the line and want to know the best way to proceed. My professors always tell us that our classmates are our most valuable resource, and I find myself agreeing. They can offer you perspectives that you wouldn't have seen on your own. That doesn't mean you need to go out for beers with them or anything like that, but you still want to cultivate a friendly relationship.

Good luck with your program!!

morah

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 11:43 am

I wanted to add this but forgot last night- be careful not to turn into that person who always has an ecuse or needs an accommodation. While you will need to be accommodated, you should present a backup plan of your own making and do as much as you can without relying on exceptions. While you may need to go home by, say, 1 on Fridays in December, don't take advantage and do that in April when it's totally unnecessary. I actually had this recently where a prof was trying to reschedule a canceled class for a Friday afternoon from 1-3:30. He wants to do it in 2 weeks. There is a frum guy in my class who objected because he must get home early on Fridays. Now, this guy lives in my neighborhood (so he has the same commute) and lives at home- it's not like he's the one making Shabbos. I make Shabbos, and at this time of year, getting home at 4:30 gives me plenty of time, not to mention that I will do some prep Thursday night anyway. Anyway, this one guy is making trouble for the other 39, clearly asserting religion, and that's just poor form. So yeah, don't be that guy.

Depressed

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 11:47 am

Being a baal tshuva, and understands how things work from the outside and inside I can advise you , YESOD A..... DONT ACT WEIRD...

My husband, said that he was in PS , if the girls thought you were a dork or just didnt like you they acted hostile or creepy, if they didnt know you or were being polite and professional they acted pleasant and normal.

When he moved to Lakewood and worked in various stores and jobs, it seemed at first like all the girls, specificially the ones that grew up in B Park as opposed to out of town, all acted creepy. If he felt that way, I can only imagine how an assimilated jew or a [gentile] who was never exposed to our culture thinks.

For example, if a man gets within 6 inches of you, you can keep a respectful distance, but dont get all nervous and recoil like you just saw a cock-roach.

amother

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 12:38 pm

Thank you all for the advice and experiences that you've shared here! I feel like I have a clear picture now of how I need to handle YT. The recommendation to try to do exams/assignments early rather than make them up later was especially helpful; thank you. I'm going to look for ways to be perceived as someone who's not always looking for special exemptions, and who's professional and proactive.

The point about how your classmates are your future colleagues really hit home for me. I'm going to try to keep that in mind, and go out of my way to be friendly and pleasant to everyone. I'm a little shy, so it takes effort for me to do that, but I can see how important it'll be. I know it'll feel awkward at first with male classmates, but it's true (as one poster said) that Speech has mostly female students, so hopefully that won't be a big issue.

Thanks for the reminder that when I step into that classroom, people are forming opinions about Jews based on how I act!! That's a huge responsibility. Iy"H I can make a Kiddush Hashem.

Thank you all for your wonderfully helpful advice!!

farm

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 1:20 pm

How friendly were you with the other students?
In my experience, initially like groups tended to sit together during lectures and hang out together- ie the Korean group, Russian group, Greek group, Jewish group, etc. but as time went by all became more friendly with all and the groups were not so deliniated.

How did you handle working with male partners?
It didn't bother me. I started college a single BY girl straight from seminary and had no problem working with any student at any time. Don't overthink it, he is a person just like you and no different than any other (female) student in your program.

Did you attend classes on Chol Hamoed?
yes

Did you find that not socializing with your classmates outside of class had a negative impact?
I didn't have much time to socialize out of class, nor did any of the other students who were not dorming. There were a few deans hours and student functions in between classes that I attended if the topics/themes were something I was interested in. While I was not Miss Popularity or class president, I have many warm, close friendships with the classmates who shared similiar goals with me and took similiar career paths. I also never had a problem getting notes for classes I missed on Yom Tov or finding study partners. I was respected as a quieter and more serious student so others took me seriously and sought me out as a confidant, homework/assignment advisor and free tutor!

How did you make time to study?
I didn't sleep much and had little to no leisure time. Good thing I can function like that. I also got better at studying as time went by- I was more in tune with the kind of things that would be on the exam and what the professor was looking for so I was able to study less and do as well, or better. That came in handy after I got married and DH wanted me to chill out and have fun.

I can't really help you with the young kids part. I had my first in my second to last year and it was a model baby who would sleep or play and let me study. I"H it will work out for you as well.

hannah95

Tue, Mar 22 2011, 1:29 pm

How friendly were you with the other students?

Friendly enough to be able to ask for notes if I missed a class, but not friendly to the point of being BFF.

How did you handle working with male partners?

I think it only happened once or twice in the first years only. We met in public places to work together. No worries.

Did you attend classes on Chol Hamoed?

Yes. But I had to double some of my classes because the final exam was on shabbat.

Did you find that not socializing with your classmates outside of class had a negative impact? How did you make time to study?

I had a nearly full time job at the same time, so socializing was mostly at breaks and in between classes. If anything had a negative impact on my studies, it was me Smile

but I made it Smile