reform judaism and orthdox judaism

Mrs Bissli

Sun, May 15 2011, 4:41 pm

My personal observation is that orthodox tend to have more reservation against being in a same platform with reform, whereas reforms are not necessarily against sharing the platform with orthodox. One example I can give is Limmud. In case you are not familiar, it is a highly successful jewish cultural/educational (not necessarily religious) event that gives hundreds of lectures across different jewish movements. Orthodox establishment's view initially was total denial--orthodox rabbis would be reprimanded if he spoke in such forum. However, the situation had improved somewhat in recent years where more orthodox rabbis are represented--sadly more overseas guests than local orthodox rabbis.

On the other hand, there's some aggressive agenda-setting by non-orthodox communities, as in the example of JCoSS which claims cross-denominational but in practice would make it very difficult for someone shomer mitzvot to actively participate in the school.

Fox

Mon, May 16 2011, 11:58 am

I think there are two different questions/answers to this.

The first is the religious or philosophic attitude of Reform-affiliated Jews toward Orthodoxy. This is not all that complex. The Reform movement in the U.S. (and elsewhere, if I'm not mistaken) is officially a non-halachic movement. That means that they do not expect their members to adhere to halacha except as it is consistent with the values of the surrounding society. This is why Orthodox leaders do not usually participate in events, programs, etc., in which leaders from Reform congregations/organizations are given equal billing: it suggests that there is an equality of some type and that an individual Jew can choose to be halachically observant or not.

The second question I find much more interesting, and that this the sociological question: What is the practical relationship between Reform and Orthodox clergy and lay leaders. I work tangentially with a large number of Reform congregations, and I can sum it up in one word: fear.

The famous "Will Your Grandchildren Be Jewish" chart that debuted in 1996 (Antony & Horowitz) showed that the non-Orthodox Jewish community in the U.S. is disintegrating. Most non-Orthodox leaders claimed the study's methodology was flawed, and a handful proposed ideas to reverse the situation -- short of halachic observance and day schools, of course.

But 15 years later, I see the decline every single day:
* Non-Orthodox synagogues and organizations are declining in size, average age, and financial commitment.
* Non-Orthodox synagogues are struggling to find ways to engage their congregants in communal activities of any sort.

Now, if you ask the Reform or Conservative movements, they'll paint a much different picture. They'll show you statistics about membership growth and new congregations. They are not exactly lying, but you have to be intimately familiar with how such congregations operate.

For example, one of the largest Reform synagogues in my area runs a preschool. Oh, and you just happen to be required to "join" the congregation in order to send your child. So parents join, send their kids to the preschool, and then drop their membership when their kids age out. Their development director privately confided to me that their "real" membership is dropping at least 10 percent each year. And this is in an area with a huge Jewish population. However, they are often cited as a "growing" congregation.

The "new" congregations tend to be small -- what we would describe as a shtieble or kehilla; maybe 20-100 families. Their allegiance is generally not to the ideals of the larger movement, but to forming a community with like-minded Jews.

The Reform leadership, even at the local level, recognizes what is happening, and it frightens them. While some of them are committed to providing a spiritual alternative for their congregants, others are infuriated that Orthodoxy has "won" the numbers game.

They are also sometimes bothered by the cognitive dissonance that occurs when their stereotypes of Orthodox people don't pan out. For example, I often send male staff members to work with Reform synagogues because the leaders are so bothered by seeing an Orthodox woman in an executive role. In fact, I once had a woman walk out of a session I was scheduled to lead because she was so offended that a pregnant woman in a shaitel was going to be speaking as an authority. It was just too hard for her to accept that the stereotype she'd accepted -- that Orthodox women are kept chained to a pot of chicken soup -- was wrong.

In my experience, individual congregational rabbis of all denominations may transcend the sociological issues, but the leaders and spokesmen among them certainly do not, and those issues color day-to-day relations among U.S. Jews to a remarkable degree.

ora_43

Mon, May 16 2011, 12:19 pm

I think for most people affiliated with reform, they think they are right and that people who are orthodox are misguided.

Whether they see orthodox observance as simply unnecessary or actually harmful (IOW whether reform congregations tend to be accepting of orthodox congregations or anti) varies. In general it's like anything else - the bigger the overall Jewish community, and the more that various congregations have to compete for resources, the more actual hostility there is.

So in Israel, where reform congregations see orthodoxy as responsible for blocking funding they feel is rightfully theirs (and where the movement is overtly political), there's anti-orthodox sentiment (ie big time friction (exacerbated by the fact that the orthodox haven't really noticed)). In Smalltown USA where there's a tiny shrinking reform congregation and a tiny shrinking orthodox congregation and no competition for donors or members, people tend to get along fine.

Beyond competition, I think the main issue in causing friction is that many people who aren't orthodox assume that orthodox Jews are judging them. So if there's dislike, it's not "I don't like you because of your observance," it's "I don't like you because of what I assume you think of my observance." That's a big "if" though, there's often no dislike at all.

suzyq

Mon, May 16 2011, 12:28 pm

Fox -

I think you make a lot of good points and present the issues fairly well, but I have to guess that your experience is predominantly with NY-area Jewry.

Having grown up WAY out of town, I can tell you that the Reform and Conservative movements were much, much stronger than the Orthodox kehilla where I lived. The Orthodox shul in town has, for the last 30-40 years, struggled to stay in existence. There are many reasons for that, and it's actually somewhat immaterial to the discussion. What is important, though, is that the Reform and Conservative congregations where I grew up are thriving - if anything, they have grown larger because they welcome anyone with open arms - Jews, non-Jews, converts, etc.

What I did experience, though, was a hostility towards Orthodox Jews and Judaism by the Reform rabbi in that community. He absolutely opposed me when I decided to become observant, going to lengths to tell my parents not to "let" me. He also spoke from his pulpit about the "evils" of the Orthodox ways and consistently found cause to denigrate the Orthodox movement and contrast it with the "enlightened" Reform movement. I also found in such a community that the knowledge of Orthodox Judaism in general was quite limited. Interestingly, I'm not the only baal teshuva from the community.

The one thing that you said, Fox, that I totally disagree with is that "Orthodoxy has won the numbers game." Yes, there are vibrant Orthodox communities out there, but there are also massive numbers of people going "off the derech." Many, many shuls are struggling and schools are closing left and right. Unfortunately, I think whatever trends are occurring in the greater Jewish community are also happening within Orthodoxy.

suzyq

Mon, May 16 2011, 12:29 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I think the bolded is the heart of the matter.

amother

Mon, May 16 2011, 12:40 pm

I live in a smaller US community outside of dc where we have all 3 in the same town, and have all three generally throughout the region (concentrations vary depending on what side of the beltway).

My experience in my local community has been that all three are fairly amicable but upfront about their own standards (e.g. the local chabad is very upfront about their personal halachic standards and kashrut in the shul but welcome jews of all backgrounds to join in services and events; reform and conservative are very upfront about egalitarianism in prayer, emphasis on tikkun olam and support of israel, etc.). However, given that all three are trying hard just to hang on, it is very nice that they all get along and there is interplay in programming rather than squabbling.

For example, the chabad does not run a preschool but the other two do. The chabad rabbi visits and does preschool programming for the preschools, such as the olive press at chanukah or matzo factory at pesach. The preschool in the reform synagogue is through a joint effort with the JCC, and the snacks that are served are required to be strictly kosher (albeit pas stam, chalav stam).

Interestingly, the head of facilities at the reform synagogue is orthodox and lives in the orthodox area on the other side of DC, and is intensely strict with how the preschool foods are prepared and served (for example, will not let them go through the reform kitchen).

The conservative rabbi has also partnered with the chabad rabbi in the past and they have a good and positive working relationship.

I couldn't tell you what the individual congregant views are locally--as observant jews we are in the distinct minority in this community but we have generally been treated with a high level of courtesy and respect. The only people who have told us that our views and practices are misguided, unfortunately, have been our own (less observant) family members.

amother

Mon, May 16 2011, 1:03 pm

I live in a very small community with one large orthodox congregation and one smaller non orthodox congregation. (not in the US) We are friendly with some of the members of the non orthodox shul in town. there are several couples where they belong to both congregations - the non orthodox shul's presdents wife belongs to our shul, and they alternate weeks. Most of the members of the orthodox shul are not frum.

the main issue is that a large proportion of their membership is not halachically jewish. Men who marry out join the non orthodox shul becasue they know their kids will not be considered Jewish in our shul. Most of the kids in that shul are not halachically jewish, I think I know only one family who is.

we will not attend anything in the non Orthodox shul, but their members will come to things in ours. (and I am sure many of our non religious members will go there) We usually have a lot more things going on though. They do not have a full time rabbi.

Fox

Tue, May 17 2011, 8:46 am

suzyq wrote:

Having grown up WAY out of town, I can tell you that the Reform and Conservative movements were much, much stronger than the Orthodox kehilla where I lived. The Orthodox shul in town has, for the last 30-40 years, struggled to stay in existence. There are many reasons for that, and it's actually somewhat immaterial to the discussion. What is important, though, is that the Reform and Conservative congregations where I grew up are thriving - if anything, they have grown larger because they welcome anyone with open arms - Jews, non-Jews, converts, etc.

suzyq wrote:

The one thing that you said, Fox, that I totally disagree with is that "Orthodoxy has won the numbers game." Yes, there are vibrant Orthodox communities out there, but there are also massive numbers of people going "off the derech." Many, many shuls are struggling and schools are closing left and right. Unfortunately, I think whatever trends are occurring in the greater Jewish community are also happening within Orthodoxy.

I'm definitely not viewing this from an East Coast perspective, but rather from a national perspective. The realities of life for Orthodox Jews mean that they will be concentrated in places. For example, I've watched the Atlanta community grow from basically an OOT community kollel with a handful of families to a vibrant, sustainable community. Now, if you were to look at all Georgia Jewish congregations and organizations, you would say, "There are a lot more non-Orthodox organizations than Orthodox ones."

To someone living in Macon, GA, it looks like the Reform/Conservative congregations are "stronger." But if you look at the larger picture in Georgia, you find something very different. It is also not simply a matter of numbers, but the average age and level of Jewish commitment of those members. Reform/Conservative organizations are now competing with Save the Whales for support, whereas Orthodox organizations -- despite many pressing needs -- are not.

While I agree that there are definitely struggling Orthodox communities, again, the picture overall is quite different. For example, I just spoke yesterday with an Orthodox congregation in a community with a major yeshiva and a large frum population. They are on the brink of closing because the surrounding community generally supports and attends a more yeshivishe shul that opened approximately 20 years ago. The congregants at the troubled shul are older, less Jewishly educated, and less knowledgeable about halacha. While it is sad that such congregations wither away, their demise is a sign of success (I.e., the success of day school and yeshiva education) rather than failure.

DrMom

Tue, May 17 2011, 9:01 am

Fox wrote:

Now, if you ask the Reform or Conservative movements, they'll paint a much different picture. They'll show you statistics about membership growth and new congregations. They are not exactly lying, but you have to be intimately familiar with how such congregations operate.

For example, one of the largest Reform synagogues in my area runs a preschool. Oh, and you just happen to be required to "join" the congregation in order to send your child. So parents join, send their kids to the preschool, and then drop their membership when their kids age out. Their development director privately confided to me that their "real" membership is dropping at least 10 percent each year. And this is in an area with a huge Jewish population. However, they are often cited as a "growing" congregation.

ITA with this. According to what I know about the US Conservative/Reform congregations to which my various family members belong:

Reform congregations demand membership for using their facilities for a bar/bat mitzvah. Many families join, do some sort of bar/bat mitzvah ceremony, and the you never see them again. Many congregations are just bar-mitzvah mills. When there's no bar mitzvah slated, the shul is empty.

Also, sometimes Conservative/Reform clergy request shul membership as a prerequisite for perfoming a wedding ceremony. So they get members that way, on paper at least. It seems that a very small percentage of their membership actually daven in the shuls to which they belong.

Barbara

Tue, May 17 2011, 9:10 am

Fox, the Conservative and Reform movements are going through what Orthodoxy did in the 1950s and 1960s. They have a core of committed members, and a larger group of people who identify as members of the movement, but are not. They will lose non-committed members before they can grow. We can see that happening even now. The Union for Reform Judaism now has 13 camps, plus camps run by URJ congregations. (Remember that the greatest predictor of in-marriage and continuing Jewish life is day school, followed very closely by Jewish camping.) The fact that these camps are growing is a sign of the continuing vibrancy of the Reform movement. In fact, there are also a not insignificant number of Reform Day Schools, as well as community day schools that attract a lot of Reform Jews.

As to what Reform think of Orthodox, not much. Literally. Most Reform Jews will never meet an Orthodox Jew. They'll hear various things, and find what they hear to be quaint and bluntly antiquated. But its not part of their everyday lives. And yes, they do believe that their way is completely right, and that the Orthodox have clung to a lot of old customs that are not, and should not be, required by Jewish law.

That said, there is probably a lot more respect of Orthodox by Reform than vice versa. I doubt a Reform woman would ever refer to an Orthodox "rabbi" using quotes to suggest he's not really a rabbi, while its certainly common here. That may be because while Reform do not *require* the strictures of Orthodoxy, they don't forbid them, either. Orthodox, OTOH, forbid many Reform customs, such as playing guitar or other musical instruments on Shabbat.

Fox

Wed, May 18 2011, 7:34 am

Barbara wrote:

Truthfully, I don't know. This is what the Reform movement says, but this is not what I see in day-to-day business. I agree that there is a core of committed members, but I don't see evidence of that core expanding or significant potential for expansion. I do see more growth in non-affiliated organizations, including day schools and synagogues, but again, these are not people who necessarily support the goals of the Reform movement itself; they are simply creating kehillas of people with similar levels of observance and values.

Barbara wrote:

That said, there is probably a lot more respect of Orthodox by Reform than vice versa. I doubt a Reform woman would ever refer to an Orthodox "rabbi" using quotes to suggest he's not really a rabbi, while its certainly common here. That may be because while Reform do not *require* the strictures of Orthodoxy, they don't forbid them, either. Orthodox, OTOH, forbid many Reform customs, such as playing guitar or other musical instruments on Shabbat.

Well, right -- by definition, Orthodox Jews are committed to following halacha as best they can; Reform Jews are not.

The issue of respect is a bit of a circular problem. Community roles within the Reform and Orthodox worlds are so different that using the same titles is begging for trouble. A "rabbi" within the Reform movement leads services, provides counseling, and initiates activities within his/her congregation. Those people certainly exist in the Orthodox world, but they are not necessarily called "rabbi" either!

The baal tefilla of an Orthodox shul may leave for his job as a car mechanic after davening; a kehilla may have several people known to give good counsel, including women, teachers, and others without the title of "rabbi"; and initiating communal activities in the Orthodox world is remarkably equal opportunity -- not only do you not have to be a "rabbi" by anyone's definition, hardly anyone will question your qualifications to start a gemach, sponsor a speaker, or create a welcoming committee.

When women on imamother use "rabbi" in quotes when referring to a Reform clergy member, they are not simply dissing the Reform movement or commenting on the curriculum at HUC. They are, albeit unconsciously, pointing out that the qualifications and activities that characterize the title in the Reform world do not do so in the Orthodox world.

Well-adjusted Reform clergy will happily defer to the greater quantitative knowledge of Orthodox rabbonim; they see themselves as spiritual facilitators and educators for communities attempting to strengthen their Jewish connections rather than leaders of the Jewish people as a whole. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, there are plenty of Reform (and Orthodox, for that matter!) clergy who want to be alpha dogs and who are better at self-promotion than at their actual jobs.

Of course, a cursory review of Naviim reveals that this is an old story, and putting "rabbi" in quotation marks is a lot less bloody than some of the alternatives we've experienced in our history! LOL

DrMom

Wed, May 18 2011, 7:45 am

auntie_em wrote:

I think if you look at it globally though, you find that although a shul is Orthodox on paper, the members themselves are not. I know the Conservative movement has shuls opening up in places they never were before and the members of the local Orthodox shul, which might have been the only option to that point, are switching.

I think in some places where the Reform movement is not very prominent, this is the case. For example, in S. Africa I know there are many Jews who belong to Orthodox shuls, although they are not shomer shabbat, etc. In the US it is much rarer for a non-observant Jew to belong to an Orthodox shul. They'll belong to a Reform shul, of they will be unaffiliated. If you ask them which "branch" they affiliate with, they'll say, "I guess I'm Reform." I've even heard people describe themselves as "very Reform" if they are very far-removed from Jewish life.