Why are we against gay marriage?

Aribenj

Thu, May 19 2011, 12:21 am

amother wrote:

As a Jewish person, I obviously believe that marriage is for a husband and wife, and that being gay is not what the Torah wanted. However, I get confused when I see people mixing into the business of others and opposing gay marriage laws in America.

America was built on giving people rights. Everyone is equal. Just because I believe something is wrong, does not mean that someone else who does believe in it should be restricted. Just like there is freedom of religion, which benefits us Jews so much, there should be freedom for each person to decide how to live their lives as well. It is not our place, or the governments place, to control that.

ITA.
As a general policy, I don't think it should be illegal. As Jews, we should be the last to mess with the separation of church and state in our country. Once you start messing with that for one thing, it sets a precedent, and there goes our freedom of religion.

That being said, do I think two Jewish MEN or WOMEN should get married under the chuppah? Well... No. But again, it's irrelevant to this particular thread, since that then becomes a religious question, and we live in a country where church and state are separate.

As for what to call it? who cares! If they want to call it a marriage, why not? The issue is the legal ramifications of these titles. Will they be eligible to adopt? to inherit? to act as legal guardians? to make medical decisions? Personally, I don't see why not. Just because the person you are closest to and share your life with happens NOTto be the of the opposite gender doesn't mean you should not be entitled to any of these rights and privileges.

As a side note, btw, you can be attracted to another person of the same gender, live with them, love them, and not be physical with them. In which case, halachically speaking, what exactly are they doing wrong?? It's ahavas israel! (as for pru urvu, there's adoption...)

Raizle

Thu, May 19 2011, 12:57 am

akivachaya wrote:

Raizle wrote:

you are all so right, we should allow people to live the way they are and we should allow gay marriages

but.......

let's not forget the siblings Jane and John Doe who have quite a close relationship for a brother and sister.

but live and let live.....

however the world is not yet ready for Paul and .....fluffy..
that will have to wait till we no longer bat an eyelid at all of the above and then we can start working on allowing people to do as they please in their own kennels

I dont get it.....

What's not to get?

Torah forbids homosexuality, incest and beastiality.
Society also forbade all that once upon a time.
Today homosexuality is becoming normalized more and more to the point that we are having a discussion as to whether gay marriages should be allowed.
Yet people in incestuous relationships and people who practice beastiality are still frowned upon.
why?
All I'm saying is that if one is going to claim let people do what they want with regards to homosexuality then
why not the other things?
and whose to say that once homosexual marriages becomes completely legalized and accepted in all states, people in incestuous relationships won't be coming "out of the closet" and advocating for acceptance.
shocked by my suggestion?
I'm sure that once upon a time one would be shocked by the suggestion that one day gay marriages would be legalized.

ora_43

Thu, May 19 2011, 2:05 am

I'm with Raizle on this.

If you're going to argue that a prohibition on gay marriage violates the separation of church and state, then logically, prohibitions on bigamy, bestiality and incest also violate the separation of church and state. The only reason we oppose any of those things is Biblical law (I've heard other arguments, but none hold water IMHO).

But really, none of those things are in violation. Come on, gay marriage has been illegal for more than 200 years in America and suddenly we notice that it violates the constitution? You don't think that the people who actually wrote the Constitution would have noticed that? Clearly, it was not their intent to allow gay marriage, just like freedom of religion/ separation of church and state doesn't mean a person can conduct a human sacrifice (even if its consensual), circumcise their daughter, or dance naked on their front lawn.

Whether this generation wants to allow it or not is a different question.

Personally I think anyone and anyone should be allowed to form a "civil union." There's no reason not to let two people of the same s-x, or two good friends of any s-x, or two cousins or two siblings, decide to raise a child together or inherit from each other or whatever else.

But voting davka for "gay marriage" over an open-to-all civil union isn't just voting to give people freedoms, it's voting for a political statement. Specifically, for a statement that says, "The Bible is outdated and homophobic, gay relationships are just as valid and holy as any other relationship." And it's natural that a person who believes Torah is divine and still very much relevant would want to avoid making a statement like that.

amother

Thu, May 19 2011, 3:50 am

Yocheved84 wrote:

I didn't read the responses; I'm responding solely to your subject line.

We're not all against gay marriage. Some of us are in absolute, full support of it. Some of us march in support of it, sign petitions for it, and attend our friend's marriage/commitment ceremonies as maids of honors.

And some of us will knowingly get bashed on this site for stating her opinions. Oh well. Bash me. Everyone has a right to love and be loved. Gay people have a right to love, as much as bigots do.

Don't worry. There aren't too many that have the courage to criticize you for supporting anti-Torah laws. It's the other way around.

Raizle wrote:

akivachaya wrote:

Raizle wrote:

I dont get it.....

Your first post was quite clear and cutely written. Why only endorse "gay marriage/unions" and not marriage/unions with animals, siblings, parents and grandparents? Why the discrimination against these poor people? How does that affect your life in any way? Everyone is equal. Live and let live. There should be freedom for each person to decide how to live their lives as well. It is not our place, or the governments place, to control that.

shalhevet

Thu, May 19 2011, 4:40 am

As someone mentioned, gilui arayos (s-xual immorality) is one of the 7 mitzvos bnei Noach. Another of the 7 is setting up courts to enforce the other 6.

By allowing "marriages" which are forbidden to non-Jews, society is giving an official stamp of approval to this behaviour, which is different from turning a blind eye to it.

I'm interested if those here who don't see a problem with gay "marriage", are also in favour of official "marriage" between people and animals, incestuous "marriages" etc. If not, why not?

amother

Thu, May 19 2011, 4:56 am

shalhevet wrote:

I'm interested if those here who don't see a problem with gay "marriage", are also in favour of official "marriage" between people and animals, incestuous "marriages" etc. If not, why not?

Good point Shalhevet
Okay, I haven't been frum all my life. I was very pro-gay "rights" in college...UNTIL..
My lab partner was a lesbian. She discussed gay "rights" with me but then said. "And you know what? What if a brother and sister fall in love and want the right to be together? Am I not a hypocrite to say it is okay for me to love who I want to but to say that a brother loving a sister is wrong?"

She made the opposing side's case very eloquently but the scary thing is that SHE MEANT IT.

Thus, my flirtation with being pro-gay rights ended abruptly after this conversation.

sarahd

Thu, May 19 2011, 5:57 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I'm interested if those here who don't see a problem with gay "marriage", are also in favour of official "marriage" between people and animals, incestuous "marriages" etc. If not, why not?

If it's not "marriage" do you support the gay lifestyle in general and that all Jews should be tolerant to them and that they should be allowed to pray in any shul and even be the chazzan on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur?

I don't know about Shalhevet, but I do not support anyone's right to be a practicing (is that the right term?) homosexual, since that is prohibited by Hashem's law. I also don't think they should be chazzan on RH or YK, for the above reason (besides for which, they don't fulfill the requirement that a shaliach tzibur on Yamim Noraim should be married.) FTR, I also don't think swindlers, tax cheats and whichever other white-collar criminals someone is going to bring up should daven for the amud on RH/YK

shalhevet

Thu, May 19 2011, 6:24 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I'm interested if those here who don't see a problem with gay "marriage", are also in favour of official "marriage" between people and animals, incestuous "marriages" etc. If not, why not?

We are talking about two (or maybe three) different things:
1. Should a non-Jewish country allow official "marriage" between arayos forbidden by Noachide laws - I think we should be opposed to it, because it gives an official status to something assur for non-Jews too. I don't know if Jews should be doing anything actively against such legislation, but certainly not supporting it in private/ on frum message boards.

2. Governments in a non-Jewish country turning a blind eye to what people do in private even if it's against 7 mitzvos Bnei Noach - I don't think there can or should be legislation about this.

3. Jews living a gay lifestyle (I.e. not just gay, but in a gay relationship) - I don't think you have to check the tzitzis of every Jew coming into a shul, but I wonder if they can be counted in a minyan, and certainly shouldn't be allowed to be chazzan on RH and YK. The chazzan represents the community before Hashem! He should be on the highest level. How can anyone think of letting someone be chazzan (even on another day) who is publicly known to break halacha, especially of such severity?

mosma

Thu, May 19 2011, 8:14 am

I'm pro gay civil and legal marriage. anti gay jewish marriage.
because first of all, the whole reason gay ppl are going nuts about this marriage thing is that it's not recognized by the state. so if one of them gets sick and goes to the hospital, his/her partner cannot visit them. they can't make decisions for them if they're unconscious. and they usually know best what the other person really wants, more than their family (especially bec often their families cut them off for being gay). that's really unfair and very sad, regardless of what kind of lifestyle they lead.
there's also tax reasons, etc, to be considered.
I'm anti gay jewish marriage bec whie I do not judge anyone for the lives they lead (I've been through too much stuff in my life and been judged by others who do not understand and I REFUSE to do that to another person. too much pain.) it's still assur in the torah and should not be allowed to be recognized in a jewish wedding, especially a kesuba. to me that's like making a bracha on treif (although I suppose if someone has to eat treif for health or survival maybe the halacha is that you DO have to make it on treif food lol).
I do not think it will lead to incest marriages or animal marriages. first bec that's just ridiculous. it's always been recognized that that is disgusting. gay people have been around for years and years. the only mention of lesbians in the torah is where it says in rashi that we shouldn't lay like the egyptian women (which is translated as lesbian) so it's obviously been around for a LONG time.
either way, since the main problem gay ppl have is the LEGAL marriage part (hospitals etc), it doesn't pertain to siblings or dogs, since siblings always have the right, and dogs never do.

penguin

Thu, May 19 2011, 8:28 am

Sorry, Mosma, you can designate anyone you want as your health care proxy, you don't need gay marriage for that.

Look, in olden days you had women who lived in the same house, sisters, cousins, friends. Did you engage in 'inappropriate' activities? It was nobody's business if they didn't choose to advertise it. They might even raise a chlid of one of them or a relative. Yes, that was a household, but it didn't need to be called a marriage.

By 'legalizing', or insisting on 'coming out', these people are asking for approval.

You can love someone, be friends with someone, empathize with someone, but the do not have to have your approval of their lifestyle choices. That's what this is about.

And if we don't want a churban (not a mabul, but there are plenty of other scary things that can destroy a society) we need to insist that society expect morality.

The problem here is everyone just says what they think. Do you notice anyone really thinking about the opposing viewpoints? (Like many discussion groups, have you ever seen anyone really pay attention to someone else's view and change their own?????)

(I can't find it now, but one poster said, "oh come on, legalizing gay marriage would not lead to incest, bestiality" - but then another poster said her gay lab partner realized she had to approve of the others too. Anyone going to answer that?)

Ruchel

Thu, May 19 2011, 8:43 am

shalhevet wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

In minian we count really all types of sinners, so I don't see the problem personally.

Many hold you cannot count people who are publicly mechalel Shabbos.

Quote:

Chazan yes I'm bothered, but again I'm also bothered by the chazan who comes by car...

I don't know any Orthodox shuls, not even lite O, who would have such a chazan (I assume you mean on Shabbos or YT, not during the week).

In many shuls if you did the first you would have minian at best on Kippur. I actually couldn't tell you one shul who does. I asked my husband, he has heard of it, but couldn't give one location either.

In small out of town communities, in shuls where hardly anyone is shomer shabbes, it exists even though the shul is fully Orthodox. My husband has seen one intermarried chazan... lo alenu.

For those who want to complain, not that anything can be done for a shortage of chazan and rabbis or to force them to agree to be way out of town: http://www.consistoire.org/nou.....dc69e

Last edited by Ruchel on Thu, May 19 2011, 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total

saw50st8

Thu, May 19 2011, 8:50 am

Shalhevet,

Most of the reasons to allow gay marriage are for tax purposes and inheritence purposes. There are states in the US that have made it virtually impossible to leave your possesions to a non-blood relative or spouse, but forbid gay marriage. Otherwise it goes to the state (this may be older information that has since been repealed, I haven't researched it).

Bestiality is a non-consentual relationship. Incest usually has problems relating to power and is not concenstual either. Polygamy is rather complicated because marriage often ties in with insurance in the US, but I am not opposed.

I think the argument against using the word marriage is ridiculous. Does it bother you that athiests can use the term? Or pagans? Or people who violate other of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach?

Remember, intermarriage between blacks and whites was forbidden until the near recent past. Anyone think thats ok right now?

Capitalchick

Thu, May 19 2011, 8:53 am

I can see being opposed to gay marriage within a religious context, but I don't have any problem with irreligious people getting married to members of the same gender.

There are some people who just don't have religion in their lives. And the fact that the Torah says that homosexuality is wrong, is completely meaningless to them. Religion is a choice. Being a religious person is a choice. And just as much as we should never be forced to give up our religion, I don't believe others should be bound by our own religious laws.

I know gay couples. I know gay couples who are raising children. They are loving parents, raising their kids in warm, loving, healthy homes. Absolutely no indication that their children are being pushed into homosexuality. I think even gay people recognize that homosexuality is a significant minority, and so they totally expect their kids to be straight. Either way, the children who have been adopted, in my opinion, are thriving and benefiting from loving parents in a manner that I can't imagine they would have living in an orphanage or in foster care.

I can't imagine the pain of not being able to love who I loved, and not being able to live my life in the manner that made me happiest. It would just be so terrible. I just don't believe it's for me to decide how others should lead their lives (except for enforcing laws forbidding heinous crimes, or in instances where that lifestyle seriously damages the community, which I don't believe gay marriage does).

Last edited by Capitalchick on Thu, May 19 2011, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total