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-> Interesting Discussions
Ruchel
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 Thu, May 19 2011, 8:55 am
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Actually no, you have no choice in being frum as a Jew, or a Noahide as a non Jew. You have to.
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Capitalchick
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:01 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | Actually no, you have no choice in being frum as a Jew, or a Noahide as a non Jew. You have to. |
Really? How come I ate bacon and cheeseburgers until I was 17, then?
And as for a non-Jew being a Noahide, yes, there is a choice there too. The Torah might say that they are bound by those laws, but clearly non-Jews make a choice as to whether or not to abide by those laws.
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:03 am
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It's not allowed. Period. A Yid doesn't have the right to be not frum, and a non Jew also should abide by Noahide laws.
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libramom
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:16 am
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you should all read Jodi Picoult's new book - "sing you home"
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:17 am
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I've heard she is a good author, but when it comes to halacha I stick to halacha.
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sarahd
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:20 am
| Capitalchick wrote: | I can see being opposed to gay marriage within a religious context, but I don't have any problem with irreligious people getting married to members of the same gender.
There are some people who just don't have religion in their lives. And the fact that the Torah says that homosexuality is wrong, is completely meaningless to them.
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But to me it's not meaningless. Do I have to support gay marriage because to others my convictions are meaningless?
Say I think it's perfectly okay to live my life on welfare and as many programs as I can get. Your belief that a person should support themselves if they're capable of doing so is meaningless to me. Are you going to support and vote for my right to take welfare for the rest of my life?
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ora_43
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:39 am
| mosma wrote: | I do not think it will lead to incest marriages or animal marriages. first bec that's just ridiculous. it's always been recognized that that is disgusting. gay people have been around for years and years. the only mention of lesbians in the torah is where it says in rashi that we shouldn't lay like the egyptian women (which is translated as lesbian) so it's obviously been around for a LONG time.
either way, since the main problem gay ppl have is the LEGAL marriage part (hospitals etc), it doesn't pertain to siblings or dogs, since siblings always have the right, and dogs never do. |
Incest and bestiality also go way back. The same Egypt where lesbianism was apparently practiced, also had brother-sister marriages among the leaders, and to some extent among the general populace as well.
If you'd asked someone about gay marriage 40 years ago, chances are good they would have said, "What?? No way. Everyone knows that's disgusting." Tachlis, if you asked people in much of the world that same question today, that's the answer you'd get. So I don't think "oh, society thinks those are gross so it won't happen" is an argument that holds water.
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:45 am
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To many non Jews marrying your first cousin is gross, your uncle is horrible incest. Still it's ok, even praised by some sources. We cannot indeed judge by what the majority likes or dislikes. The majority also dislikes "forcing" a religion on your children.
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mosma
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:48 am
| ora_43 wrote: | | mosma wrote: | I do not think it will lead to incest marriages or animal marriages. first bec that's just ridiculous. it's always been recognized that that is disgusting. gay people have been around for years and years. the only mention of lesbians in the torah is where it says in rashi that we shouldn't lay like the egyptian women (which is translated as lesbian) so it's obviously been around for a LONG time.
either way, since the main problem gay ppl have is the LEGAL marriage part (hospitals etc), it doesn't pertain to siblings or dogs, since siblings always have the right, and dogs never do. |
Incest and bestiality also go way back. The same Egypt where lesbianism was apparently practiced, also had brother-sister marriages among the leaders, and to some extent among the general populace as well.
If you'd asked someone about gay marriage 40 years ago, chances are good they would have said, "What?? No way. Everyone knows that's disgusting." Tachlis, if you asked people in much of the world that same question today, that's the answer you'd get. So I don't think "oh, society thinks those are gross so it won't happen" is an argument that holds water. |
ok, I'll give you that argument bec theoretically I guess the ethicality can be questioned and changed (although I doubt that it will. it's a looooooooong stretch from a relationship with a person to a relationship with an ANIMAL.)
but my legal argument still holds water.
besides, if they're not jewish, who cares what they do?
I don't understand ppl who are offended by gays. as long as they're not having relations in front of me on my dining room table, why should I care? and what gives anyone the right to tell someone else what to do or not to do?
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ora_43
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:48 am
| saw50st8 wrote: | | Bestiality is a non-consentual relationship. |
We murder animals by the millions. We raise them in darkness, pump them full of hormones, then kill them and eat their flesh. We use them for our medical experiments and take their skins for our clothing.
Consent is not an issue when it comes to animals. Does the chicken consent to have her eggs taken? Do dogs consent to be kept on a leash? Nobody cares, so why would they care about bestiality? The only thing preventing it is the "eww" factor, not animal rights.
| Quote: | | Incest usually has problems relating to power and is not concenstual either. |
That's assuming that you're talking about people raised in the same household. What about children raised separately by divorced parents? Children raised in separate foster homes? A sperm donor and his biological daughter? A man who abandoned his baby and that same baby as an adult?
The ban on incest applies to, I'd guess, hundreds of thousands of people who have no "problems relating to power."
Also, while I see your point, there are other marriages where power could be an issue that are allowed. A young woman can't marry her brother, but can legally marry her former teacher or even her former step-father. So again, I think it's really the "eww factor" that's preventing this one - and the "eww factor" can change (case in point: gay marriage).
| Quote: | | Remember, intermarriage between blacks and whites was forbidden until the near recent past. Anyone think thats ok right now? |
That ban was against Torah law throughout history, and remains against Torah law. I'd say that's davka proof for the other side - what "everybody knows" to be moral outside the Torah world changes, and we should stick to our laws and not rely on the nations to teach us morality.
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ora_43
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:54 am
| mosma wrote: | | besides, if they're not jewish, who cares what they do? |
We weren't given the Torah just for our own enjoyment. It's ultimately meant to be for the entire world. Non-Jews have their own mitzvot, and we should encourage them to keep them.
Whether or not that means a legal ban is one thing, but "who cares" is another. (Like some previous posters, I would not be active against gay marriage, but also would not vote for it, although as I said I would support a "non-marriage union" between anyone and anyone).
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 9:55 am
In some cases bestiality is consensual, sometimes also consensual only on the animal's part. Not going into details lol
Incest can also be consensual especially if they meet later or if it starts late in life.
You can disagree with something without being offended. I'm not offended by gay or by non shomer shabbes, I still learn that first one is forbidden for anyone to practice, and second one is forbidden to Jews. I'm not going to support something I don't think should be supported since it's forbidden to everyone. Not sure why it's puzzling, especially on a frum forum.
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marina
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:01 am
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''New Rule: Gay marriage won't lead to dog marriage. It is not a slippery slope to rampant inter-species coupling. When women got the right to vote, it didn't lead to hamsters voting. No court has extended the Equal Protection Clause to salmon. And for the record, all marriages are same seks marriages. You get married, and every night, it's the same seks.'' —Bill Maher
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:02 am
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Actually some want to extend human protection rights to big apes...
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libramom
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:06 am
ruchel - personally, I haven't decided where I stand on this issue.
but are you protesting to the fact that non jewish stores are opened on shabbos, or for that matter any other law that goes aginst halacha?
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marina
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:12 am
| ora_43 wrote: | I'm with Raizle on this.
If you're going to argue that a prohibition on gay marriage violates the separation of church and state, then logically, prohibitions on bigamy, bestiality and incest also violate the separation of church and state. The only reason we oppose any of those things is Biblical law (I've heard other arguments, but none hold water IMHO).
But really, none of those things are in violation. Come on, gay marriage has been illegal for more than 200 years in America and suddenly we notice that it violates the constitution? You don't think that the people who actually wrote the Constitution would have noticed that? Clearly, it was not their intent to allow gay marriage, just like freedom of religion/ separation of church and state doesn't mean a person can conduct a human sacrifice (even if its consensual), circumcise their daughter, or dance naked on their front lawn.
Whether this generation wants to allow it or not is a different question.
Personally I think anyone and anyone should be allowed to form a "civil union." There's no reason not to let two people of the same s-x, or two good friends of any s-x, or two cousins or two siblings, decide to raise a child together or inherit from each other or whatever else.
But voting davka for "gay marriage" over an open-to-all civil union isn't just voting to give people freedoms, it's voting for a political statement. Specifically, for a statement that says, "The Bible is outdated and homophobic, gay relationships are just as valid and holy as any other relationship." And it's natural that a person who believes Torah is divine and still very much relevant would want to avoid making a statement like that. |
1. Strict constitutionalism will not get you to a place where you want to be. The founding fathers also did not want women voting for example, and were happy to have blacks be considered property. Much better to go with progressive constitutionalism.
2. A law is considered not in violation of the first amendment if it a)has a secular purpose b) neither advances nor inhibits religion and 3) does not entangle the courts in issues of religion. So if a anti gay marriage law could meet all those criteria, it might pass the first amendment. Although it would probably have difficulty with the 14th.
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Barbara
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:25 am
| marina wrote: | | ''New Rule: Gay marriage won't lead to dog marriage. It is not a slippery slope to rampant inter-species coupling. When women got the right to vote, it didn't lead to hamsters voting. No court has extended the Equal Protection Clause to salmon. And for the record, all marriages are same seks marriages. You get married, and every night, it's the same seks.'' —Bill Maher |
I love Bill Maher.
BTW, not every US state has specific laws against beastiality. Just sayin'.
But in any case, the day that an interspecies couple can demonstrate that they are being discriminated against by one not being legally entitled to make health care decisions for the other (meaning that My Little Pony could make senscient decisions for you, since you're already allowed to make them for him), etc., and more importantly, that the union is consensual on both parts, then I'll march for inter-species marriage.
In the meantime, gays are being discriminated against by our government.
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Barbara
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:27 am
| libramom wrote: | ruchel - personally, I haven't decided where I stand on this issue.
but are you protesting to the fact that non jewish stores are opened on shabbos, or for that matter any other law that goes aginst halacha? |
Well, since France. like the US, has only a tiny Jewish minority, would you object to the imposition of Church law?
In Muslim countries, do you agree that they have not only the right, but the obligation, to impose sharia on all citizens?
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sarahd
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:47 am
| libramom wrote: | ruchel - personally, I haven't decided where I stand on this issue.
but are you protesting to the fact that non jewish stores are opened on shabbos, or for that matter any other law that goes aginst halacha? |
It's against halacha for a non-Jewish store to be open on Shabbos?
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Ruchel
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Thu, May 19 2011, 10:59 am
| sarahd wrote: | | libramom wrote: | ruchel - personally, I haven't decided where I stand on this issue.
but are you protesting to the fact that non jewish stores are opened on shabbos, or for that matter any other law that goes aginst halacha? |
It's against halacha for a non-Jewish store to be open on Shabbos? |
Yeah, that.
I do UNDERSTAND Muslims and Catholic who would want their law, of course. But why would I want it, given I'm Jewish?
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