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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
maze
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 Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:03 pm
I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
Ramban and some other Rabbanim opposed using chickens.
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Grandmama
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:20 pm
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By chasidim it is an unbreakable minhag. The crowds waiting on line to do things the traditional way is what keeps them (the chickens) coming back, year after year. The chickens are usually shechted that day and donated to yeshivas. Every chasidish school and Yeshiva does this, they raise a lot of money like this. Somehow everything has its time and place. Tzedaka you give anyway, you mail out checks and give out cash all the time. Physically seeing that chicken being your kaporah is never going to go out of style, no matter what angle anyone wants to use as an excuse. Yes, there were times people used fish or money. But when chickens are available, that is the way most will choose to do it.
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ora_43
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:25 pm
Chickens are always kept in tiny cages. That's how animals are raised for food these days.
The chickens used for kapparot around here are donated to needy families for the chagim. So I don't object to kapparot any more than to donating chicken to a family for Shabbat any week of the year (that is, not at all).
I agree that the way animals are treated in factory farming is tzaar balei chaim, and a bad idea for humans and animals alike, but in the meantime, I don't expect the world to be vegetarian.
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Ema of 5
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:28 pm
| Grandmama wrote: | | By chasidim it is an unbreakable minhag. The crowds waiting on line to do things the traditional way is what keeps them (the chickens) coming back, year after year. The chickens are usually shechted that day and donated to yeshivas. Every chasidish school and Yeshiva does this, they raise a lot of money like this. Somehow everything has its time and place. Tzedaka you give anyway, you mail out checks and give out cash all the time. Physically seeing that chicken being your kaporah is never going to go out of style, no matter what angle anyone wants to use as an excuse. Yes, there were times people used fish or money. But when chickens are available, that is the way most will choose to do it. |
how do you see the chicken being a kapara? by killing it? that doesnt seem very fair to me. I would not feel very good about my forgiveness if I knew that something had to die in order for me to receive it.
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Grandmama
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:31 pm
| akivachaya wrote: | | Grandmama wrote: | | By chasidim it is an unbreakable minhag. The crowds waiting on line to do things the traditional way is what keeps them (the chickens) coming back, year after year. The chickens are usually shechted that day and donated to yeshivas. Every chasidish school and Yeshiva does this, they raise a lot of money like this. Somehow everything has its time and place. Tzedaka you give anyway, you mail out checks and give out cash all the time. Physically seeing that chicken being your kaporah is never going to go out of style, no matter what angle anyone wants to use as an excuse. Yes, there were times people used fish or money. But when chickens are available, that is the way most will choose to do it. |
how do you see the chicken being a kapara? by killing it? that doesnt seem very fair to me. I would not feel very good about my forgiveness if I knew that something had to die in order for me to receive it. | y
So how do you feel intellectually or emotionally about korbanos?
Again, this is a tradition, if its not your tradition, you dont have to follow it. I choose to do what my parents and grandparents and great grandparents did.
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Aidels
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:41 pm
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You never eat chicken??! Why tzaber lchaim? The chickens aren't just thrown away...
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maze
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:44 pm
| Aidels wrote: | | You never eat chicken??! Why tzaber lchaim? The chickens aren't just thrown away... |
It's the cruelty and the tzaar baalei chaim that happens during the process, that's the problem, not the eating.
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AlwaysGrateful
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:46 pm
| Grandmama wrote: | | akivachaya wrote: | | Grandmama wrote: | | By chasidim it is an unbreakable minhag. The crowds waiting on line to do things the traditional way is what keeps them (the chickens) coming back, year after year. The chickens are usually shechted that day and donated to yeshivas. Every chasidish school and Yeshiva does this, they raise a lot of money like this. Somehow everything has its time and place. Tzedaka you give anyway, you mail out checks and give out cash all the time. Physically seeing that chicken being your kaporah is never going to go out of style, no matter what angle anyone wants to use as an excuse. Yes, there were times people used fish or money. But when chickens are available, that is the way most will choose to do it. |
how do you see the chicken being a kapara? by killing it? that doesnt seem very fair to me. I would not feel very good about my forgiveness if I knew that something had to die in order for me to receive it. | y
So how do you feel intellectually or emotionally about korbanos?
Again, this is a tradition, if its not your tradition, you dont have to follow it. I choose to do what my parents and grandparents and great grandparents did. |
This.
You do know that we, as a people, killed animals all the time as a karban chatas during the time of the beis hamikdash? It's for a purpose. Same reason you're allowed to wear leather shoes even though you can easily buy synthetic today. This just SEEMS worse, because you actually SEE the chicken beforehand.
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sarahd
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 2:48 pm
| maze wrote: | I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
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Umm...you think 100 or 1000 years ago they didn't have money and that's why they used chickens?
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ora_43
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 3:30 pm
| maze wrote: | | Aidels wrote: | | You never eat chicken??! Why tzaber lchaim? The chickens aren't just thrown away... |
It's the cruelty and the tzaar baalei chaim that happens during the process, that's the problem, not the eating. |
How is it any more cruel than the rest of the chickens' lives?
Maybe I should start a new thread: "Meat - why eat it if there's an alternative."
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MaBelleVie
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 3:39 pm
If G-d created these animals for the purpose of karbanos, food, and other mitzvos/minhagim, it's not very logical to think that it's unfair. It may not make sense to you, but it isn't unfair- that is how they fulfill their purpose for being in the world.
The treatment of animals in the process is another story.It would be nice if we had ways to determine what the animals think and feel, and to guide their treatment accordingly.
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freidasima
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 4:03 pm
It is really complicated.
Once upon a time we lived in a world where the concept of korbonos was a novel one because other peoples killed humans not animals for their sacrifices.
We were right up there with the innovators.
But times changed and many of chazal in the middle ages already admitted that the concept of korbonos has long gone from the world and today (meaning even a thousand years ago) if we would have the zechus of building a beis hamikdosh, the sanhedrin would probably institute some subsitute for animal korbonos, Maybe we would only have minochos or whatever, incense etc.
So the queries about korbonos aren't new at all.
And rabbonim who said that the minhog of kapporos with a live animal is long off said it over 1000 years ago. Rambam anyone? Many, many many gedolim for over a thousand years preferred to do it with money. Why? Because we are far from being on the madrego where we have the "right" to think to transfer our sins to an animal. In fact, we aren't far above animals in our madrego. Where did the poor animal sin to get our aveiros??? To shecht the animal to eat is one thing, but to transfer our aveiros to him???? Vus plitzim? Are we such zaddikim?
Many of chazal say we are not.
The idea of keeping so strictly to what our grandparents did...the shtarkness of this only came about after the Holocaust when anything and everything, including some real minhogei shtus from places in Europe, were all of a sudden turned into something holy even if in Europe in many places there were lots of rabbonim who were against it and spoke against it.
The idea that people eat meat is one thing. The idea of thinking we can transfer our sins to them is another. I am not against eating meat. I am against the concept that today we are of any madrego that allows us to even contemplate the idea of transfering our sins to an animal. Who are we? With what right? That ended when we lost the beis hamikdosh. Otherwise we can just open up the Bamos and start making korbonos...after all, when there is no beis hamikdosh that is just what chazal, it seems, did for at least two generations...did you ladies know that there seem to have been korbonos until Bar Kochba's time? Yeah well...so you don't need a beis hamikdosh at least for korbon pesach, just can;'t do a lot of the surrounding rituals, but to schecht a korbon pesach? Sure you can. After all chazal did it. After 70 BCE.
So what's next ladies, going to get on line and schecht your korbon pesach in the spring as well? After all there are still Yemenites here in EY that keep that minhog up until today...
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ally
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 4:34 pm
| sarahd wrote: | | maze wrote: | I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
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Umm...you think 100 or 1000 years ago they didn't have money and that's why they used chickens? |
100 or 1000 years ago, they didn't transport the chickens en masse, in horrific conditions for kapores. You went outside (if you were in the country) and to the market if you were in the city and instead of taking the chicken straight to the shochet, you swung it around your head and then took it to the shochet. All the people handling the chickens most likely knew how to do so without dropping them/breaking their feathers etc...
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 4:51 pm
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Sorry that only your post is showing up so I don't know if anyone said this, but here's why (and I do use money): because it's an established mesorah and one will only do it if from a set up that doesn't involve tzaar baalei chayim? I'm sure they're around, and they should be applauded.
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sarahd
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 5:02 pm
| ally wrote: | | sarahd wrote: | | maze wrote: | I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
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Umm...you think 100 or 1000 years ago they didn't have money and that's why they used chickens? |
100 or 1000 years ago, they didn't transport the chickens en masse, in horrific conditions for kapores. You went outside (if you were in the country) and to the market if you were in the city and instead of taking the chicken straight to the shochet, you swung it around your head and then took it to the shochet. All the people handling the chickens most likely knew how to do so without dropping them/breaking their feathers etc... |
I hear you (they didn't raise chickens in battery conditions either...) but I was responding to OP's statement implying that chickens for kapores are not necessary nowadays because nowadays we have money.
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kitov
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 5:08 pm
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100 and 1000 years ago there also wasn't a Dept of Health to control food safety and handling, and yet, in theses sub prime conditions, people shlugged with chickens, shecht them, and ate them.
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ally
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 5:13 pm
| kitov wrote: | | 100 and 1000 years ago there also wasn't a Dept of Health to control food safety and handling, and yet, in theses sub prime conditions, people shlugged with chickens, shecht them, and ate them. |
Their chickens were organic, free range and grain fed. They were one up on us there.
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ally
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 5:15 pm
| sarahd wrote: | | ally wrote: | | sarahd wrote: | | maze wrote: | I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
|
Umm...you think 100 or 1000 years ago they didn't have money and that's why they used chickens? |
100 or 1000 years ago, they didn't transport the chickens en masse, in horrific conditions for kapores. You went outside (if you were in the country) and to the market if you were in the city and instead of taking the chicken straight to the shochet, you swung it around your head and then took it to the shochet. All the people handling the chickens most likely knew how to do so without dropping them/breaking their feathers etc... |
I hear you (they didn't raise chickens in battery conditions either...) but I was responding to OP's statement implying that chickens for kapores are not necessary nowadays because nowadays we have money. |
I wonder if city people tended to use money more. I can definitely understand the "power" of using a chicken over money...I am just very uncomfortable with the modern method.
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hadasa
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 5:59 pm
Freidasima, who are the Chazal of the middle ages who maintain that animal sacrifices will not resume with the coming of Moshiach? I find that an interesting claim because in my Nusach (and I assume in yours as well) we explicitly ask Hashem to bring us up back to our land so that we will bring the same sacrifices as written in the Torah, enumerating the exact type and number of animals.
As for the chickens, I believe that as the traditionally accepted preferable method of performing this Minhag (at least in my shitah), it has a spiritual effect that other methods don't. And I also believe the chicken prefers to be slaughtered for a poor Jew's pre-fast meal than for lehavdil some non-Jew's X-mas dinner.
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freidasima
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Thu, Oct 06 2011, 6:21 pm
Hadasa I get you but my guess is that the chicken prefers to live and not be anyone's dinner, YK or Xmas!
We use the nusach because we do not yet have a sanhedrin which has abolished animal korbonos and the nusach was created at a time when we were just a few generations away from animal korbonos so it was the accepted nusach.
However Rambam, Sforno, Ramban and Ibn Ezra all say that there is a problem of us not being on the madrego of korbonos on the one hand, and the fact that they aren't done in the world for centuries on the other hand and that it may well be that we will use only menachos and not go back to the physical slaughtering for a korbon. Or that we will continue to say a tefilo of korbonos but not do the real thing. I don't have perek posuk and my husband who will be getting up for slichos here in another four hours is sleeping and I'm not going to wake him up but I'll ask him if I have a head for it after YK and get the precise sources if I remember.
Anyhow, there is also the svoro that vegetarianism is the highest madrego possible in terms of kedusha. So go know.
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