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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> Toddlers
amother
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 Wed, Nov 16 2011, 3:06 pm
My DS is turning 3 soon (only child, so far) and this is his first year being away from home (half day) - he's in a small (7 kids) home based playgroup.
So, I just got a call from the Morah that he's been throwing blocks (she even got a call from the victim's mother - apparently her kid now has a big bump on his head!) and pushing, harassing his friend with a plastic watergun, etc. She puts him in timeout, but I guess he is still being a repeat offender. His Morah says he needs to know there are consequences, and if timeouts aren't getting to point across, she might need me to come pick him up...
I don't know what to do. I talk to him about it, how it's not acceptable to throw toys, how he has to listen, play nice, etc. He'll say yes that he understands, but I guess it's going in one ear out the other... He has no siblings so it's not like he learns this at home. However, for what it's worth and I hate to say it, but my neighbor's kids are quite physical. They're a bit older, and constantly fighting with sticks and pushing and teasing him when he tries to play, etc. I love my neighbor, but her kids can get a bit wild and I think that's where my DS might be picking it up from?
Anyway, I don't know how to handle this, really! I have no idea how to discipline him, especially when I'm not even there! Help! I don't want to be THAT mom with THAT kid! :-( 
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chicco
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 3:13 pm
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It takes a while for kids to learn "proper" behavior. When kids aren't "THAT" kid, it is not because they have such wonderful middos, it is usually because they are shy and introverted. What your child needs is good child and adult role models, you and your husband to enforce consequences for bad behavior, but more importantly reward for good behavior, and a morah who is willing to work with him. There is nothing wrong with your child, he just need to learn how to interact with other kids. He needs to be in an environment that encourages him to grow, and doesn't just kick him out when he doesn't conform. I know, my kid is that kid. And under the right guidance, he is growing beautifully BH. Good luck.
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Flowerchild
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 3:26 pm
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If he spends half a day with her, under her watch, than it’s her responsibility to teach him how to behave. A mother cannot reteach when the moment passes, a mother can talk to the child after school to reinforce what the teacher already did. I am a teacher myself and would not expect parents to be sole providers of teaching children how to behave. The teacher should probably calmly acknowledge how he feels, and help him and teach him how to express himself verbally. He is 3 for god sakes; he needs help expressing his feelings. I have a child in my class who is the same way as yours, what I do is, I either preempt and stop him before he does something destructive and help him use words, or when he does something inappropriate I again calm him down show! Through action by hugging other kids and saying to them in words what he needs, he has gotten much better even though he still needs help. Also, maybe it’s just me but consequences are a bit too out there for a 3 year old it’s a very deep concept which I don’t think he will grasp. What he will grasp is patient understanding and verbal teaching expression from adults around him. He is most likely not doing these behaviors because he is mean, but probably because he is frustrated and doesn’t have the tools to express how he feels.
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naomi2
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 8:51 pm
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oh man, that sounds difficult. I for sure can't say where the behavior is coming from but parenting classes/books can go a very very long way. good luck!
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amother
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 8:52 pm
| chicco wrote: | | When kids aren't "THAT" kid, it is not because they have such wonderful middos, it is usually because they are shy and introverted. |
I am sorry, but there is a middle ground where many kids stand.
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amother
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:10 pm
Well we talked and talked about it and hopefully something did stick!
I'm just mamish embarrassed to be THAT Ima that gets THOSE phone calls...
He's really such a sweet kid. But such a boy also.
We're taking in 2 cats tomorrow and so hopefully interacting with more alive creatures will help him be more gentle...
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amother
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:11 pm
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Please be careful. If he hurts the cats he may in turn get very hurt.
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AlwaysGrateful
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:18 pm
Can I suggest playdates? That way you can help him, one on one, to learn social skills.
My ds went to playgroup at age 2, and he had also been an only child up until then. I found that it was too overwhelming for him to learn these skills for the first time whiel in a group setting, and that it really helped if I had just one friend over and talked him through different social situations that came up.
I know how you feel. That said, your child is not "that kid." Your child is a little three year old who needs help learning how to act in a social setting. That's where you come in!
(I do think that it's strange that the teacher is handing the behavior over to you, though. You should not need to be the only "consequence." She should be able to enforce consequences without you there -- that's part of her job!)
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Lalu
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:47 pm
It is important to remember that your ds is really only a toddler (literally a toddler  ). The manner in which he is interacting is totally appropriate for his young age. Two year old boys make friends by hitting, throwing things, pushing overs over and falling - it is all very natural and all very appropriate for his age - it is fine.
Based upon my experience as a Morah and University Professor for 25 years - this morah may need some help regarding information and teaching practices for toddlers. Often I see educators (who no fault of their own) do not have the adequate training and knowledge base to work with toddlers. At this point, she should be designing the environment in such a way that no-one is hurt. She might want to even include 'Social Stories' in her circle time (very helpful).
Your DS is right where he should be OP. You have a wonderful, wonderful blessing - over the years I have had many of 'those boys' in my classes - and I can share that they are all outstanding young boys, young men and men
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Lalu
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:47 pm
It is important to remember that your ds is really only a toddler (literally a toddler ). The manner in which he is interacting is totally appropriate for his young age. Two year old boys make friends by hitting, throwing things, pushing overs over and falling - it is all very natural and all very appropriate for his age - it is fine.
Based upon my experience as a Morah and University Professor for 25 years - this morah may need some help regarding information and teaching practices for toddlers. Often I see educators (who no fault of their own) do not have the adequate training and knowledge base to work with toddlers. At this point, she should be designing the environment in such a way that no-one is hurt. She might want to even include 'Social Stories' in her circle time (very helpful).
Your DS is right where he should be OP. You have a wonderful, wonderful blessing - over the years I have had many of 'those boys' in my classes - and I can share that they are all outstanding young boys, young men and men
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Lalu
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:48 pm
It is important to remember that your ds is really only a toddler (literally a toddler ). The manner in which he is interacting is totally appropriate for his young age. Two year old boys make friends by hitting, throwing things, pushing overs over and falling - it is all very natural and all very appropriate for his age - it is fine.
Based upon my experience as a Morah and University Professor for 25 years - this morah may need some help regarding information and teaching practices for toddlers. Often I see educators (who no fault of their own) do not have the adequate training and knowledge base to work with toddlers. At this point, she should be designing the environment in such a way that no-one is hurt. She might want to even include 'Social Stories' in her circle time (very helpful).
Your DS is right where he should be OP. You have a wonderful, wonderful blessing - over the years I have had many of 'those boys' in my classes - and I can share that they are all outstanding young boys, young men and men
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Lalu
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:49 pm
It is important to remember that your ds is really only a toddler (literally a toddler ). The manner in which he is interacting is totally appropriate for his young age. Two year old boys make friends by hitting, throwing things, pushing overs over and falling - it is all very natural and all very appropriate for his age - it is fine.
Based upon my experience as a Morah and University Professor for 25 years - this morah may need some help regarding information and teaching practices for toddlers. Often I see educators (who no fault of their own) do not have the adequate training and knowledge base to work with toddlers. At this point, she should be designing the environment in such a way that no-one is hurt. She might want to even include 'Social Stories' in her circle time (very helpful).
Your DS is right where he should be OP. You have a wonderful, wonderful blessing - over the years I have had many of 'those boys' in my classes - and I can share that they are all outstanding young boys, young men and men
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Lalu
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:51 pm
It is important to remember that your ds is really only a toddler (literally a toddler ). The manner in which he is interacting is totally appropriate for his young age. Two year old boys make friends by hitting, throwing things, pushing overs over and falling - it is all very natural and all very appropriate for his age - it is fine.
Based upon my experience as a Morah and University Professor for 25 years - this morah may need some help regarding information and teaching practices for toddlers. Often I see educators (who no fault of their own) do not have the adequate training and knowledge base to work with toddlers. At this point, she should be designing the environment in such a way that no-one is hurt. She might want to even include 'Social Stories' in her circle time (very helpful).
Your DS is right where he should be OP. You have a wonderful, wonderful blessing - over the years I have had many of 'those boys' in my classes - and I can share that they are all outstanding young boys, young men and men
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amother
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 9:56 pm
My son was also that kid. He got thrown out of every play group he was in. His twin sister has the scars to prove that he was that kid - not kidding.
My daughter was very quiet and well behaved. I used to joke and point to her and say that it is not his mother's fault.
One thing that worked for me was making him see he hurt someone. I would take him very young and show that he hurt someone. I would make him say sorry. Time outs did not work because he was smart enough to know they would be over soon. Having me come and get him was just a reward. We are very close.
BH, he is older and calmer. He is in the sixth grade and years above his grade level. He was thrown out of school (again) in the third grade. I was told to try special yeshivah. I refused to "dummy him down." He is now arguably in the top yeshivah where I live and he is a great student. He has a great future.
I shake my head and I think of all the trouble this kid was in. He is nice and calm. He has plenty of friends, He is very sensitive to others ( probably from being shown - "look what you did."" you hurt him/her.")
I know it is frustrating. I would keep it simple. Point out to him what he did. Rewards worked better with my son. It is very important to separate out academic achievement from behavior. I know they are related; but it is possible to know for instance math and yet be a distraction in class. I was very proactive in making sure his grade reflected his work and not his behavior. I worked with my son constantly to keep him up with his class. I probably went too far ahead.
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amother
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 10:09 pm
First I would say:
is he undergoing any stressful milestones right now?
a. toilet training
b. switching from crib to bed
c. getting rid of his nap
d. weaning him off of pacifier or bottle or maybe even nursing (who knows!)
etc.
Also, you may want to get: books, movies, tapes, CD's that teach social skills, good middos, how to interact . . .
Especially if you use mentchies/puppets to who stories:
"Moishy is a little boy who's friend Dovid just stole his toy from him. What should Moishy do?
should he hit Dovid? No, Moishy is a big boy now with a yarmulka! He knows to go to Morah and ask Morah if he can have a turn."
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flowerpower
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 10:57 pm
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First of all, it since it's the first time he is away without you and in a class of kids he probably doesn't know how to interact properly.Also, that he is an only child and has no role models may also be the reason. I agree that it takes time to adjust. It is a few weeks into routine since succos...and he should start adjusting at this point. I have a feeling that the teacher needs some discipline ideas. Dumping a kid in timeout every few minutes and telling the mom to get her kid because she can't control him doesn't impress me. The playdate/coaching idea is a good place to start.
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imaima
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Wed, Nov 16 2011, 11:28 pm
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I think it is unprofessional for the morah to have you pick up the child just because she can't handle him. If she organizes a playgroup, then she should be ready to have to deal with all sorts of kids in her house.
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Dolly Welsh
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Thu, Nov 17 2011, 12:31 am
The neighbors are not helping. They get away with it, so why shouldn't he, he figures. Mommy's talk is not as impressive as physical experience in his social world.
And he may simply be too young for daycare, even half day. He's only 3. That's very individual.
He is too young for cats, IMHO. He is even too young for dogs, let alone cats. Are they de-clawed? Are these your first cats? He will be jealous of them, remember. If you are having more children, pregnant women should not change the litterbox because of medical dangers.
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5*Mom
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Thu, Nov 17 2011, 1:31 am
I'll echo the posters who have said they are not impressed with the teacher. She is not doing her job, and likely does not know enough about early childhood development to do her job properly. This behavior is perfectly within the range of normal for this age. Unpleasant but normal. Your son's behavior does not need to be managed; your son needs to be taught the skills he has not yet mastered. Time outs, "consequences," punishments and rewards do not teach.
First of all, nothing occurs in a vaccuum. We have very little information to go on here. I wonder if the teacher is focusing solely on his "behavior" without noticing the context, which is crucial to identifying the skills he needs help with. Is he being provoked (verbally, being left out of games)? Does he have sensory issues and needs to maintain a certain amount of private space around him (one of my hyper-sensitive kids did this to keep other kids out of her space)? Does it happen when he wants to join in a game with other kids but he does not know how to do so (known as "entry to play skills")? She needs to observe the context more carefully to get a more complete picture. All of these things would be addressed differently.
As far as how to respond when he hurts someone or does something that can potentially hurt someone, the teacher should always speak to him in a neutral, warm tone of voice, never angry. If he hasn't yet hurt someone she should calmly say, "I'm worried that doing X might hurt someone. We need to keep everyone safe here. Let's find another game for you to play" and gently redirect him.
If he has already hurt someone, she should get down to his level and very gently point out that the other child has been hurt. "Look Moishe, Dovid got hurt by that block you threw and now he is crying b/c it hurts. What do you think you can do to make him feel better?" At this age he will need suggestions. "Maybe you could bring him an ice pack to hold on his boo boo so it will feel better." Or bring him a chair to sit down on, a book to relax with, a favorite toy to hold, etc.. The point is to GENTLY help him focus on the other child to make the connection between what he did and the hurt child and trying to comfort and help the other child. Time outs, punishments and even rewards will only help to focus a child's attention on HIMSELF, the exact opposite of what we should be teaching children.
As far as apologizing, I would never force or tell a child he should apologize, as this backs them into a corner, is humiliating and can lead to an unnecessary power struggle. I'd try a gentle suggestion like, "I know you didn't want to hurt Dovid. Maybe you want to say you are sorry so he will know that you didn't want him to get hurt." His choice.
It is crucial to remember that raising children is a long-term project. It will take lots of time, lots of repetition, and lots of patience. If this teacher doesn't have it she should not be running a playgroup. Yes, she needs to keep the other children safe and this means more work for her while she more closely supervises your child until he begins to integrate new skills but that is her job. It is normal for one child to need more involvement than other children and appropriate for her to provide it. If she is unwilling, if she is portraying your child as bad or troubled thus beginning the social isolation process (at 2!!) I would strongly recommend finding another playgroup.
Here are some great books I highly recommend. (They are not of the 10-days-to-a-better-behaved-child variety; they will give you information on early child development and the values and skills we should be focusing on as we raise our children):
Beyond Behavior Management: The 6 Life Skills Children Need to Thrive in Today's World by Jenna Bilmes
the Positive Discipline series by Nelson, Erwin and Duffy
Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn
Enjoy your child!
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grin
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Thu, Nov 17 2011, 3:10 am
I don't think talking and explaining goes very far at that age - timeout is a better teacher imo. I do agree that he's behaving this way since he doesn't know yet how to interact with other children, having grown up (so far) an "only". I think that getting cats is a really good idea, so you can have more opportunities teach him proper behavior also on the homefront.
I think it's also important to keep in mind that any quality can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances - in Hebrew, the word for characteristic is "mida" which also means amount. my kids have many scars to prove their boisterousness - teach him to channel it to positive energy.
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