Is giving less giving more?

Motek

Wed, Dec 22 2004, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Speak to your children about money. Don’t try and fool them into thinking you have less or more than you actually have.

I heard that a certain rosh yeshiva who, like most people in chinuch, didn't have much money, never let on to his kids that they didn't have money.

If his children wanted something they couldn't afford, he preferred that his children thought he was tightfisted, rather than having them know the truth, that they couldn't afford it.

why?

better his children should think he was stingy than they should resent his being in chinuch

another point regarding sharing your financial status with your kids - in situations where the children just know, like in those stories where the hut is freezing and the poor widow has no food to give her children, obviously it's not a case of whether or not she should share the info!

but those of who are blessed with more than that, although we struggle - the case can be made for NOT telling your children that you really can't afford this or that in order for the children to feel SECURE, that you can provide for them

similar to the rosh yeshiva above - better your kids should think you're tightfisted, than they should worry whether they will have food to eat

and even if you reassure them that you have food to eat and just don't have the money for some extra - children will worry anyway!

agree? disagree?

Motek

Sun, Nov 27 2005, 5:01 pm

Well, just read that Rabbi Chaim P. Scheinberg disagrees with what I wrote above. He was asked:

We are having a hard time financially. Is it all right to let the children be aware of this problem and explain why they can't have things that they want, or might doing this create unhealthy fears for them?

He answered:

"No, not at all. If the child is an understanding child, matters should be made clear to him. The child should be made to feel responsibility. My mother a'h, went to work when was only 8. The sense of responsibility they had in Europe made mentchen out of them. Nowadays, children are pampered until they're 18 or 19. A child should be taught, 'I wish I could give you such and such, but it is not a necessity and it is not within our budget. Maybe Hashem will bless us with greater abundance.

"The big tzara in American life is that we spoonfeed children and they wind up not caring about or feeling the seriousness of life. So instead of hiding things, take the child aside and explain the situation to him in a nice way and say, "You daven to Hashem and He'll give you what He knows you need."

"Let your child share life with you at the age of 8 or 9, not 18 or 19. Let them feel life in its fullness, the hardships, the responsibilities, and they'll have greater respect."

Tefila

Sun, Nov 27 2005, 5:18 pm

Quote:

"Let your child share life with you at the age of 8 or 9, not 18 or 19. Let them feel life in its fullness, the hardships, the responsibilities, and they'll have greater respect."

100% I agree. Even with matters of life and death all of my kids saw when we brought the babys from the hospital so too with matters of tradgedy they all witnessed the levaya Exclamation

And it's better to be honest concerning finances neigther exxagerating or unexxagerating to them. Then them thinking one has the meanest tightest parents around.
But be careful how to word it b/c when a child hears the word broke, or like in dire straights, in their imagination it leaves them thinking there is not even enuf for basics. As was in my case once embarrassed

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 5:57 am

This came up in chat yesterday and I'm interested in opening up the discussion.
As a kolel family there are many things which we just can't afford to buy. I actually think that it is beneficial to the children for a number of reasons (I am not talking here, ch"v, about people who can't afford basics like nutritious food and adequate clothing).

Firstly, you are preparing your child for life. No-one knows what the future holds and even if you can afford luxuries, who says that is going to be so for ever and ever. And it is a lot harder to do without if you have got used to doing with. (Rent vs. cars and holidays, anyone? Confused

)

Secondly, a child (or an adult for that matter) is actually much happier when he has less because he appreciates what he does have. Someone who gets a chocolate bar only on yomtov is going to have much more simcha from it than someone who gets one every day and expects it. This is true with any sort of gashmi (material) pleasure.

Thirdly, putting less emphasis on gashmius (manicures at 5 years old? shock

) allows a person do develop their ruchni (spiritual) side much more.

There were mothers in chat who felt that by buying their children all kinds of things they were showing their love more and making their children happier.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 9:35 am

100% Sometimes a family pleasure is necessary to keep kids not feeling like their frum and tatty learns Torah.

I see family members who are too rich to know what to do w/the money. Their kids don't enjoy anything when they visit. Nothing is exciting any more. They are 9 and 10 and have literally been all over the world. Local girls want to take them to the pool and they returned with complaints of how small it is, how there are no rides or slides, etc.

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 10:30 am

Meema2Kids wrote:

I agree. But how do you explain why you are not giving them certain things?

Can you elaborate more on what you don't give your kids that other families might see as necessities?

We explain that x is not necessary, not something they need, but something they want. Eg if Sarah is getting a pair of new shoes because her old ones tore she needs them and Rivka doesn't right now because her ones from last year still fit her and are in good condition. If Rivka is going into 1st grade she needs a new schoolbag, but Sarah is going up to 4th grade and her schoolbag is still fine so she doesn't need a new one.

As far as other families are concerned ("everyone has a new bag") I tell them that every family is different. In some the abba works and in others he learns; some imas work and others don't; everyone has a different number of bros and sis of different ages etc. As they have become older I have also explained that every set of parents decide how to spend money according to their income and priorities.

As they get older it becomes less and less of a problem I have found. They learn to accept it and don't even ask any more, and are happy, on the whole, with what they have.

I am a bit nervous to give examples, because they might sound very extreme to some communities, particularly in the USA, but I will anyway. I should add that there are other people around us living similarly, but it is a minority.
During the week I only serve milk and leben (plain, unflavoured yoghurt). Chocolate milk and puddings are for Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh etc.

We eat red meat only on yomtov (not always).

Clothes are 90% hand-me-downs. If the children occasionally need (rather than want) something new I buy. They love getting bags from their cousins and everyone is very excited as to if there will be anything for them.

If there is something they really want to buy it is usually a prize for something they have to work on. They usually get money at Chanuka and b-day from their grandparents as well.

They have plain brown notebooks for school when almost everyone has covers with pictures.

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:25 pm

I agree with you mummyof6, I grew up in a family where we got whtever we needed/wanted. I don't think to a crazy extreme, but to a very comfortable extreme.

I remeber my friends waiting for pesach for afikomen, to ask for something they are dreaming about and they would get it. I never had that type of experiance cuz I got it on a regular tuesday.

one thing for sure, such a life style like mummyof6 described gives you the value of money.

I never knew if a can of tuna cost 5$ that would be expensive. you just buy whatever is on the grocery shelf.

I came a long way after I got married.

Motek

Sun, Nov 19 2006, 3:42 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Firstly, you are preparing your child for life. No-one knows what the future holds and even if you can afford luxuries, who says that is going to be so for ever and ever. And it is a lot harder to do without if you have got used to doing with. (Rent vs. cars and holidays, anyone? Confused

)

I am in favor of minimizing spending on children and in general but that reason doesn't "speak to me". It seems to me a gloomy view of life to live life in preparation for losing one's money.

Quote:

Secondly, a child (or an adult for that matter) is actually much happier when he has less because he appreciates what he does have. Someone who gets a chocolate bar only on yomtov is going to have much more simcha from it than someone who gets one every day and expects it. This is true with any sort of gashmi (material) pleasure.

absolutely!
Parents ruin it for their kids when nosh is for every day and there's nothing special for Shabbos and Yom Tov.

Quote:

Thirdly, putting less emphasis on gashmius (manicures at 5 years old? shock

) allows a person do develop their ruchni (spiritual) side much more.

true

Quote:

There were mothers in chat who felt that by buying their children all kinds of things they were showing their love more and making their children happier.

a prevalent view these days when mommies work or even if they don't, they're not particularly interested in spending time with their children. Buying things is easier.

suomynona wrote:

I agree with you, but I think it's necessary to make to sure your children go to a school/ live in a place where most children are used to a similar standard. It's too much to expect every young child to be able to withstand the peer pressure of friends who have much more, and not grow up to resent it.

good point