Jewish & secular education VS only jewish education

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 7:35 am

the zilberman thread made me think about education for children.

I think that a secular education is VERY important, to learn math, science, history, literature, grammar etc.
I VERY MUCH value a jewish education as well.

I think that a child needs to have both a secualr and jewish education so that they can be all around, well rounded child and then adult.

I am sure that there are women on this site that feel differently. I am curious to hear both sides of the coin: why only jewish education and why both?

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 7:45 am

It is not either just a Jewish education or the same Jewish education plus a secular one. If a boy is getting a secular education he is getting correspondingly less Torah knowledge.

It really depends what sort of future you want for your son: a profession or a Talmid Chacham.

BTW, in Israel they have courses for men who have had only a Jewish education and are now interested in pursuing a career. They master maths, science etc much faster than their peers.

In my sons' chaider they learn some maths, Ivrit and science.

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 8:05 am

Aizehu Cahacham Haroeh es Hanolad. People should learn from other's mistakes.

Hope you don't mind me getting slightly off the topic, but if you read below, you'll see how it very much relates.

Is anyone here following the "Yated" discussion on Seminary?

The last couple of weeks the Readers Write section had letters offering opinions regarding a previous letter from a husband who complained that his wife was disappointed that she had to stay home watching the kids and couldn't go to Shul on Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur and as a result, she didn't feel the holiness of Yom Tov. He felt she had to be reprogrammed to set her priorities straight, and vowed not to send his daughters to Seminary.

Some writers were appalled and said to this husband- be happy your wife is a Tzadekess who wants to feel holy, etc. and some others wrote this that wife is misguided if she feels going to Shul is more important than watching and raising kids.

The next week, the paper was full of letters praising Seminaries to the sky and saying that our daughters very much need the in depth learning to stay frum in this day and age. Other letters debated the need for women to learn very deep Meforshim on the Tanach, etc. that even a Rosh Yeshiva said he found difficult to understand.

My opinion is whatever the opinion is of the subject matter in Seminaries, they do many an injustice by painting a too rosy picture of Kollel life- telling girls "You can do it , if you really want to", they leave out that there are many disappointed Kollel wives who regret what they undertook. I strongly believe that Kollel life isn't for everybody. There's also the issue of demands made on parents, who barely can support one family, never mind two, despite the best of intentions. I am aware that there are Seminary grads who, after years of generous support by parents, made nasty demands on parents because they were under financial pressure due to Kollel years, AND WERE NOT QUALIFIED ENOUGH TO BRING IN GOOD SALARIES BECAUSE OF A LACK OF SECULAR EDUCATION, MUCH DISCOURAGED IN MOST OF OUR FRUM SCHOOLS. If there is even a handful of such cases, that's way too many. The Hanhallas of Yeshivas preach about Bitachon, as they should, but when the couple is in big trouble financially, the couple and the parents suffer. They can't go back to the Hanhalla and say- but you told me I'd manage..........

If Kollel life doesn't instill Derech Eretz and Kibud Av v'em, it's rather sad and pointless.

Is Kollel life for everybody? Should it be made clear in Seminary, that if you choose a Kollel life, YOU should be ready to sacrifice, not make parents sacrifice more than THEY agreed to?

What are your views?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 8:13 am

sorry amother but I do not see how this connects to my origional qestion.

rainbow baby

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 8:35 am

Ok here is my take on this subject. My kids are in a school where they have hebrew subjects from 9 in the morning to around 1 ish I think. Then after that they have English, Maths, PE, Science, Geography, etc..... untill 3:45. They are 4 and 6. I would not be happy at all if they never had any English education at all. I think it is so very important that they have this background in their lives. I would not be happy at all if I did not have the knowledge that I had given them an all rounded education. If my children chose that they wanted to learn then I will be very happy, if they chose that they wanted to go on Shlichas then again I would be very happy, but again if my children chose to go to university and get themselves a career then again I would be happy. I would know that I had given my children the education to deal with all eventuallities in their lives.

Mummy you brought a very interesting point that I have never really understood. You worte, "BTW, in Israel they have courses for men who have had only a Jewish education and are now interested in pursuing a career. They master maths, science etc much faster than their peers."

I find this very interesting. These men could be married and needing money to support their families, to go to university with all the qualifications that you need can often take 3 or more years, BUT if you have no qualifications whatsoever the qualifications that you need to get into university can take 1 or 2 years. Hense making the corse longer. If during school the men had got their qualificationsthat they needed to get into university then 1 or 2 years could be taken off the time that they will be in college - university. I hope this makes sense!!!

shopaholic

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 9:06 am

In my area, there are 2 schools that don't offer any secular subjects & one that does from 4th grade on. DH & I chose one of the other 2 for our son & we are very happy. he gets an amazing Jewish education there & starting this year he has joined a special school that teaches English classes afetr school twice a week. It's an additional expense on top of tuition, but we think it's extremely important that he grows up learning how to read, write, basic math to go on in the world.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 9:24 am

jewishmamathebest wrote:

Exactly. If they had been learning math and science all along,they wouldn't be needing the extra years to learn the stuff. They could be working.

And what is wrong with wanting your child to be a doctor or lawyer or computer programmer or graphic designer???

Meema2Kids

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 9:32 am

Well my oldest is only in kindergarten, so that is where my opinion is coming from. I think reading is definitely important. they learn not only phonics but how to understand/analyze a story or writing. This is helpful when reading Jewish books as well as secular. I think that science helps us understand Hashem's world more (I know for me it does) and math is necessary for science.

I expect that at least some of my children will enter a profession.

red sea

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 9:39 am

Quote:

math, science, history, literature, grammar etc.

I do not consider math science history or grammar to be secular education.

math and science are all in the torah, history is to knowledgable about the world Hashem created for us and is in the torah except for what happened after it was written, grammar, we should be able to communicate like decently respectable human beings in the language that is around us, .......

literature as in shakespear (sp?) pure garbage (sorry if this offends any fans).

amother

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 10:04 am

Kmelion wrote:

[
And what is wrong with wanting your child to be a doctor or lawyer or computer programmer or graphic designer???

Absolutely nothing- Trouble is- in today's chareidi world, further education is discouraged and when family size increases, problems arise. You might not become a millionaire with a college education, but, generally, you won't be on welfare either.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 10:18 am

Kmelion wrote:

jewishmamathebest wrote:

This is plain false. In the Israeli schools for higher education for Charedi men they pass in 6 mos to a yr the Israeli bagrut or the necessary components of it. The bagrut contains time wasters and even a political indoctrination course. They often come out with a degree recognized by the Higher Education council. In the mean time they have a vastly superior Torah education. Charedim are extremely common in every field but humanities for obvious reasons. there is no need to spend 12 years learning what can be learned in a year if done as an adult. All of my children have no bagrut. Four of them earn their own living. 3 of them in jobs that require math and they have almost no classroom background. My kids are better in every math field because they start helping in the store at age 8 or so.

A man who wants to get a degree if he learned only Torah his entire life can do it in a max of 3 years. If he wants a prof certification in some nonacademic field it can take much less time. Magen, Michlala Charedit, BR academization for melamdim, Mercaz Hachshara Charedit, Machon Lev/Tal/Naveh. There are so many options today for the Charedi man. The US and other countries could, and should, follow suit. It would be easier there as their systems are not as religiously politicized and beurocratic as Israels.

One prob is that the Israeli system gives very little credit for knowledged gained by self learning or experience. I got out of many first year college courses through advance placement and was given the opportunity to do 12th grade and freshman college consecutively at CMU.

There are exceptions. There is a rav in Yerushalayim who has 36 years seniority as a social worker. He told them straight out that he has never read a sefer that is not a sefer kodesh in his life. He is one of the most successful workers with kids on the fringe. There is an agreement in the soc svcs dept. that no decision will be made concerning a Charedi family w/o his involvement.

My dd has 10 yrs schooling. After working 2 yrs in the Knesset and getting certificates in medical cosmetology and ofc management she got a job as a secretary in a CPA firm. She is saving 10,000 sh by being taught to be a bookeeper on the job and will only need to pass the test for the apprpriate gov ministry. She has a coworker with a pile of kids who also learned the material for the CPA tests at home and has just passed her last test. A licensed CPA and BY + sem, no bagrut.

My son is even better. Left school in 6th grade to build. He is very tall, 1.89 meters and the builders had no idea how young he was. He skipped school put down foundations for a house, built 5 rooves on houses. Learned plumbing, electricity, laying ceramic tiles. Today he does almost none of that except as a favor for us or a friend. He is 2nd in charge w/the contractor who is his best friend. They visit potential projects, sit and figure man hours, amt of materials and set a price estimate. He helps manage the projects and can be left totally in charge, Today he has more than 6 years of experience under his belt, a wife and child. He also caught up with his Torah. He is in the army and is with the rabbanut. He is going to be 19 this month.

My personal opinion is definitely pick the school for the best Torah education your child can handle, support of the derech of the family, atmoshere of love of yiddishkeit and yiras shamayim, care and responsibility for other Jews and character building. Anything else can be taught better, cheaper and more efficiently when necessary.

The real question in most cases under the surface is not should everyone be in kollel. The real thing bothering most is the question is will my child be more rounded if he has to ingest an enormous portion of nonJewish culture. Looking at my grown up kids - definitely not. Even to frei Israelis and Europeans American kids are babies takling to 21-22 to "find themselves". Also do we want their mindsets to be mostly western or Jewish?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 11:21 am

Quote:

I do not consider math science history or grammar to be secular education.

then what do you consider it? judaic studies? there are plenty of schools out there that do not teach math, science and grammar, they justdo not find it as important as gemara, gemara, gemara.....

Quote:

literature as in shakespear (sp?) pure garbage (sorry if this offends any fans).

you are not offending ME when you say that shakspeare is garbage, but have you ever read it? it is classical english literature, I do not think that that counts as garbage.

Quote:

My personal opinion is definitely pick the school for the best Torah education your child can handle, support of the derech of the family, atmoshere of love of yiddishkeit and yiras shamayim, care and responsibility for other Jews and character building. Anything else can be taught better, cheaper and more efficiently when necessary.

this idea may work in israel where there are special courses and institutes for charedi ppl to learn a trade, but if you only have a high school diploma for gemara and mishna and chumash, no business school is going to look at you, at all...

Quote:

The real question in most cases under the surface is not should everyone be in kollel. The real thing bothering most is the question is will my child be more rounded if he has to ingest an enormous portion of nonJewish culture. Looking at my grown up kids - definitely not. Even to frei Israelis and Europeans American kids are babies takling to 21-22 to "find themselves". Also do we want their mindsets to be mostly western or Jewish?

when I asked the question in the begining, it had nothing to do with kollel, I was just curious to see who was for and not for secular and judaic education, thats all.
you talk of ingesting a large portion of nonjewish culture. what is non jewish culture about science and math and classic old literature? and history? I dont get it.
also, what you wrote about frei israeli kids and american kids finding themselves.........what does that have to do with anything? I dont get the connection.
and just because someone has a good secular education as well as a good jewish one does NOT mean that their mindset will be mostly western. my mind is mostly jewish based, but has a good touch of culture thats all.

Esther01

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 11:43 am

ok, I have a lot to say on this subject!!!

my dh had an ONLY jewish education. when he was 8-12 years old actually, they had an english teacher that all the kids made fun off and learned nothing.

when he became bar mithzva that was the end of english, math, science, history etc...

when we got married he knew that he will have to bring parnasah one day, so pretty soon (maybe a year) after we got married he started going to pregraduate program is college. (evenings... so he stayed in kollel and went to college)

now my dh was lucky cuz he loved to read.. so he had the language (he comes from a yiddish speaking home) but no way can he write a paragraph correctly.

at one point he had to go out of kollel (we needed the parnasah) and he found a very good job in the feild that he is going for, cuz they knew that he is going for his degree.

it does take a couple of years... and it is true that they(frum men who learn gemara) learn quicker because of the gemara they learned all their teenage years. their minds are sharper than the average american guy (a classmate of dh (chinese) told my dh 'you tink quick, becuz you lirn law)

so I do like that he learned a lot of gemara before and has that knowlege and really is a talmid chacham b'h, and now in the right time he is learning what he needs for his future.

would I have wanted for him to learn ENGLISH as in grammar, writing when he was younger? probably, but it wasn't a possibility.

what will I do with my kids? I really don't know. so far I don't have boys only girls... so we'll worry then.

red sea

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 11:52 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Quote:

I do not consider math science history or grammar to be secular education.

then what do you consider it? judaic studies? there are plenty of schools out there that do not teach math, science and grammar, they just do not find it as important as gemara, gemara, gemara.....

Quote:

literature as in shakespear (sp?) pure garbage (sorry if this offends any fans).

you are not offending ME when you say that shakspeare is garbage, but have you ever read it? it is classical english literature, I do not think that that counts as garbage.

I consider then something like studies of the world that was created for us, I'm not a fan of the neglect, neglect, neglect of the rest of the torah being studied like glossing over navi and mishna in one year to never be taught again.

The way I see it is literature is a form of art, art is about beauty, and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Shakespeare (and yes, very well through high school and college) is no different to me than putting painting of cherubs or greek naked statues on my living room walls. Sort of anti torah way of life. I want to enjoy the beauty of the world so I might want to see the swiss alps or read a beautiful work of literature, but it does not per se need teaching to enjoy art, and if a school has an extra cirricular program, great, but find a way to do it that is with the way of the torah. Hollywood & US courts considers software to edit out R rated items from movies illegal because you are ruining the art of seeing topless women or a few extra four letter expressions of emotion that are "essential" to the art of the movie.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:34 pm

Esther01 wrote:

what will I do with my kids? I really don't know. so far I don't have boys only girls... so we'll worry then.

why should any of this education business be any different for girls than for boys?

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:55 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I agree with you. I would never choose to supress the Jewish or the secular part of an education (public school with religious lessons on the side is a "less worse" solution than Jewish school that neglects secular education). That's why my school of choice would be a Jewish school that would also be very strong on secular studies. I recently learned that some of the top 20 schools in France were Jewish, I was delighted to see the efforts they made!

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

Kmelion wrote:

[
And what is wrong with wanting your child to be a doctor or lawyer or computer programmer or graphic designer???

agreed. Some have become more "machmir" about avoiding any secular knowledge than some frum families were 100 years ago... when I see children who stop having any secular education at 14, I want to yell...

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:00 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Esther01 wrote:

what will I do with my kids? I really don't know. so far I don't have boys only girls... so we'll worry then.

why should any of this education business be any different for girls than for boys?

I'm not saying it is the case here, but in some families the girls are totally neglected (stop school as soon as possible, do little jobs and get married as soon as possible).

Esther01

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:01 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Esther01 wrote:

what will I do with my kids? I really don't know. so far I don't have boys only girls... so we'll worry then.

why should any of this education business be any different for girls than for boys?

because girls don't need to learn gemara. men have a mitzva to learn torah. we need to grow up into fine frum mothers (with or with out a career)

I don't see why any girl wouldn't get a secular education.

redhot

Thu, Nov 16 2006, 1:04 pm

I find these threads so hard to fathom. I wouuld frankly be seriously disapointed if my son told me he didnt want to go to college. I wouldnt force him, but I would be very disapointed.