Jewish & secular education VS only jewish education

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 3:37 am

Some rebbeim in America (and I'm not talking about the Modern) have said that it is a big problem that certain gedolim can't read English and are "lead" by followers that can. They take certain issues and present a "spin" on them to the gadol and get psakim that seem extreme (think about the banning of the book by one of Rabbi Kamenetsky's sons about his father b/c it presented info that was unpalatable to the frum velt ).

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 3:40 am

I actually read that the Rambam did go to "medical school", meaning the contemporary equivalent available at the time. I have no idea if the book (a biography, not fiction) I read was accurate, but it stated that the Rambam attended medical lectures during the day a a young man, and that he studied Torah at other times. If I remember correctly, it also stated that the Rambam was well versed in the philosophy and science of the time.

Interestingly, in those times it was considered a shame for a rabbi to depend upon his congregation to support him. Most great rabbis had a trade or profession (the Rambam was a doctor, Rashi was a winemaker, I believe, etc.). In that same biography I read, it stated that Rambam was often saddened by the little amount of time he had to study Torah, but that he considered that preferable to collecting a salary for his kodesh work.

The world it different today, but it is interesting nonetheless.

catonmylap

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 3:49 am

Obviously we need a balance of different people in society.

But if 1/3 to 1/4 of the population is kept ignorant of anything but Torah, and all the males spend their time exclusively learning torah, our society is really in for some hard times in the coming years.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 4:05 am

arita430 wrote:

I agree. We just have to encourage the girls to have decent professions so they can make a living.

And how do you expect them to do that when every other month 'Gedolim' are coming out banning girls from higher education and most professions.. and Chas v'Shalom they should consider a CAREER.

I mean it's fine if the men want to make a career out of learning, but heaven forbid the wives of these men should actually make a decent living to support their family.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 4:14 am

I don't understand that either.But there are programs like Touro college and maalot that are frum. I would hope that these places are not under the bans of the gedolim Many girls go to these places to earn their degrees.

shalhevet

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 4:25 am

Kmelion wrote:

arita430 wrote:

I agree. We just have to encourage the girls to have decent professions so they can make a living.

I don't know where your info is from. BY is offering more and more career choices every year. Someone I know has just qualified as an accountant by studying at BY in Yerushalayim. All these programs are davka encouraged by the gedolim.

mimivan

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 4:25 am

arita430 wrote:

I agree. We just have to encourage the girls to have decent professions so they can make a living. Being in kollel, from what I hear is quite hard. Your kids still feel peer pressures and might not be okay with having not so much to eat. It's a lot to do with the attitutude of the parents but sometimes I wonder if the attitude isn't too overwhelming for a kid. I also want my sons to learn but I also think that one of my sons ( who is 4 years old and quite artistic) would be a great sofer. I know he is little but he loves to be artistic and it would make me so proud if my son would write a sefer torah! what a zechus. The father who drives my kids to school goes to morning seder, then he is a rebbe for afternoon seder and he does safrus at nite. I would love my sons to be like this. Some believe that you should learn in order to teach. This father learns, teaches and writes Torah all day. Not to mention the fact that he brings in some parnasa too. His wife also works as a cosmetician and something with computers. To me these ppl are the essense of a Torah family.
I think that the men/boys should be always doing something in Torah but that in this day and age since the women work anyway and want to keep a dh in Torah, that she should get a decent education.
I have an amazing friend who is married close to two years and she became an accountant (also studying for her CPA) just to be able to have her dh in kollel. To me that it a woman who is realistic about wanting her dh in kollel. It's a big thing for her to work 9-6 everyday (a little shorter on friday), take care of the house, the baby and be a good wife. She is super duper organized though. I don't know what she will do when she has more kids but a CPA can do work from home too. I think all girls who want kollel boys should do this. They need a good education to do it. Why else are so many girls becoming an OT or a PT??

I'm asking myself why this doesn't make a BT girl with a college degree (let's say she became frum at college) more at an advantage on the shidduch scene?

zeldy

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 5:06 am

Quote:

I think that the men/boys should be always doing something in Torah but that in this day and age since the women work anyway and want to keep a dh in Torah, that she should get a decent education.

What about the women who want to stay home with their kids? Does a woman have to choose between staying with her baby and having her husband learn in kollel? Does she have to make this choice way before she has kids, when she is first going out on shidduchim?

creativemommyto3

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 7:01 am

I would love to just be home and take care of my kids but most families require dual income these days, which is why the whole kollel system is the way it is.

Shalhevet, by career choices are a very recent thing. until recently they were only by teachers and anything else was unkosher.if the by is learning to educate their girls then GREAT. This means that there is hope for the future of the kollel life. b''H.

poelmamosh

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 10:22 am

Back to the original Q:
(I can't believe I read thru 3 pgs of this!)

I think shalhevet's view is very admirable, and I relate. A combined Jewish/secular education, as least in yeshivas I have seen (and I've seen a lot, we're shluchim at a college with a large frum population) the Jewish education suffers.

I also don't know the dynamics of yeshiva education in Israel, but based on the way it works here... think there are enough challenges to a child's frumkeit WITHOUT a secular education. Why should I make it even harder? There is enough time to worry about learning the skills necessary for a higher secular education (if that proves necessary, and for kids who can't "learn" that should definately be an option) if a parent is in touch with each individual child's growth.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 10:45 am

I agree also. Although, the literature that is in the regular curriculum is not needed for a jewish child.

Motek

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 7:24 pm

arita430 wrote:

It's a big thing for her to work 9-6 everyday (a little shorter on friday), take care of the house, the baby and be a good wife.

If she is working 9-6 then she is not doing much taking care of her baby.

Quote:

I think all girls who want kollel boys should do this.

Sounds sick to me.

Motek

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 7:26 pm

mimivan wrote:

I'm asking myself why this doesn't make a BT girl with a college degree (let's say she became frum at college) more at an advantage on the shidduch scene?

You know the answer ... because it's a package deal and it comes along with disadvantages.

Motek

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 7:27 pm

Rabbi Berel Wein comments on Chazal saying that one should engage in an umanus kala u'nekiya -an occupation that is "light and clean." He says that this means a career that will permit a person to come home at a reasonable hour and spend time with the family, children, synagogue, and Torah.

"The archetypal Jewish mother wants her son to be (at least) a lawyer. Today, your average yeshiva graduate can make it through law school, pass the bar, and go on to the most prestigious law firms in the country, at no recognizable cost to his Yiddishkeit. But as a successful lawyer, he will not see his children awake from one Shabbos to the next.

"If a lawyer wants to "make it," he has to leave the house at six in the morning and attend appointments with clients at ten at night. One is not paid $100,000 per year as an entering lawyer in a Park Avenue law firm and expect to work normal hours or have a normal family life. Law is not light and clean.

"The yeshiva where I am the principal, certainly not exceptional in this regard, has a number of orphans with living parents. The father works, the mother works, and the house is empty - physically, psychologically, educationally, spiritually - deafeningly empty. The child would be better served to come home to a more modest physical environment, endowed with a presence of people of tradition and warmth and care and interest and love. The largest industry in our suburban community is child care - babysitting! No one is home. Is it worth it? I doubt it."

catonmylap

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 3:07 am

I remember once overhearing a conversation from a lawyer's wife how her husband came home so late at night(like 10, 11pm every night). I felt so bad for her. I also stopped complaining that at that time my dh who was in kollel was out of the house from 6am-7pm.

Everything has its price.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 3:38 am

Motek wrote:

Aah... But only kolel wives work, don't they?... Only kolel wives leave their children with babysitters, right?... We all know what a dreadful thing it is for a mother to leave her children some of the day so that their father can learn Torah...

The truth is that at least in Israel (and as far as I can see here also in the US and Europe) the vast, vast majority of frum Jewish mothers are working. Davka the children of kolel couples usually get much more parenting time than the average child here. The father is usually with them at lunchtime, and most kolel wives I know do not work 8-6 because their priority is the children and work is a means of earning a living and not building a career, with all the time, energy and 'sacrifice' that that entails. Most kolel couples would rather live on a lower standard (and it is a lifestyle that for various reasons allows you to live on a far lower income) and have the mother work either shorter hours or at home/ in the type of work that is more conducive to motherhood. Most kolel wives I know are teachers, gananot, work from home, babysitters or do office/computer work part time.

Last edited by shalhevet on Thu, Nov 27 2014, 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total

HindaRochel

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 6:18 am

My husband works 1.5 jobs and I work at home to be with the kids. We still don't get enough money to make ends meet, and yes we use hand-me-downs etc. etc. MOST OF THE WOMEN I KNOW ARE IN MY SHOES!!!! Their husbands are working and they are working part or full time to put food on the table. Maybe I should stop supporting the Kollel's if your husband can make it home during the day when my husband is going to work from 9 to midnight. And again, a lot of women's husbands who I know are doing the same thing.

None of us are living in the lap of luxury. None of us are taking long vacations anywhere. Most of the Israeli women I know who are working do so because they need to EAT and we don't get stipends from anyone.

We did send our children to camp. One daughter, because she is extremely shy needs that kind of social outlet. The other went to a cheap on the Yishuv camp. I bought each of us a new skirt for R"H. ONE new skirt, 33 shek each from the shook, at a 3 for 100 shek price. ONE. I don't even buy gemach clothes that often.

We don't take expensive trips.
We don't eat fancy.

And I'm so tired at the end of the day that I feel like crying sometimes.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 6:45 am

I work too. It's a reality of life. b''H I work at home though. I am trying to keep sane and have some life too. I think the key to working moms is to be very simple and when our kids are around give them tons of attention.

It's our tafkid in this generation to do this. There is no way to do otherwise.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 6:48 am

And I'm so tired at the end of the day that I feel like crying sometimes."

You made me feel better. I thought I was the only one . I was getting ready to go to a doctor for blood tests etc. now I know I am just normal. is there any way us ladies can get together to give each other chizzuk so we don't see life as some torture chamber b/c that's not what its meant to be.

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 4:29 pm

arita430 wrote:

I agree also. Although, the literature that is in the regular curriculum is not needed for a jewish child.

Chosen literature should be a must for general culture and knowledge. My rav says it's a chillul Hashem when a frum Jew is lacking in the general culture or spelling area.

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