Jewish & secular education VS only jewish education

Seraph

Fri, Sep 28 2007, 7:55 am

Re secular education-
Ideally I'd want my kids to learn math that is applicable to life- as in through algebra 1 and geometry- it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.
I think science should be taught from a jewish perspective, under the heading of "ma rabu maasecha hashem".
Some history (taught in a way to learn lessons from history as opposed to just memorizing names and dates) should be taught because "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it."
Writing and reading and grammar I feel are important, but I cant think of a good reason why.
And I agree that learning literature is a waste of time- I learned sheakespeare and all other sorts of classics and beleive that most of the "great works" do not help in one's avodas hashem (which should be the goal of anything in life) and in fact are generally against torah values.
Things like art and music- I dont think everyone should necc be taught it, but if someone has a netiya to it, they should be encouraged to learn it (in a kosher way) because ignoring talents given by hashem is a lack of hakaras hatov imho.
All this I feel should apply to both boys and girls. Boys perhaps spending less time on these so they have more time for torah learning, but at the same time making sure not to neglect these studies completely.

gryp

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:14 am

Quote:

it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.

or maybe he doesn't have a good head for math, like me. I did math courses up until pre-calculus and it's hard for me to figure out things in the grocery stores.
my husband on the other hand, hasn't taken a day of math in his life and figures it all out before I even have a chance to read the prices.

Seraph

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:43 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.

suomynona

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 11:24 am

I know what you mean Breslov. I really feel like my husband lost out by not learning how to write English well in High school. He writes articles on Jewish topics and has to rely on other people to edit them, and even then, they still have grammar mistakes. He doesn't understand why it bothers people (including me), but fact is, when something is written with grammar mistakes, it really takes away from the content. And I, unfortunately don't have the time to edit all of them.

chaimsmom

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 3:35 pm

Motek wrote:

"The yeshiva where I am the principal, certainly not exceptional in this regard, has a number of orphans with living parents. The father works, the mother works, and the house is empty - physically, psychologically, educationally, spiritually - deafeningly empty. The child would be better served to come home to a more modest physical environment, endowed with a presence of people of tradition and warmth and care and interest and love. The largest industry in our suburban community is child care - babysitting! No one is home. Is it worth it? I doubt it."

Perhaps the parents wouldn't have to work so much if they weren't paying so much for tuition.

HindaRochel

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 3:42 pm

breslov wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.

Couldn't you show him by saying, okay, what would the cost be if we had 1200 grams of each? And then show him that if you multipy 9.5 by 4 it would be more than 10 by 3.

creativemommyto3

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 4:08 pm

chaimsmom wrote:

Motek wrote:

Perhaps the parents wouldn't have to work so much if they weren't paying so much for tuition.

yeah, what do they expect when they charge tons of money and don't always give scholarships??? do they expect it to come from thin air?? If they think that it's impnt for a mom to be home charge less for tuition!

Atali

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 5:02 pm

Quote:

The yeshiva where I am the principal, certainly not exceptional in this regard, has a number of orphans with living parents. The father works, the mother works, and the house is empty - physically, psychologically, educationally, spiritually - deafeningly empty. The child would be better served to come home to a more modest physical environment, endowed with a presence of people of tradition and warmth and care and interest and love.

There is a huge difference between having two parents working in order to buy more luxuries, which shows that money is more important to them than anything else, and having a wife work while the husband is in Kollel, which shows that limud haTorah is more important to them than anything else. Of course they still have to make a point of spending time with their children.

batya_d

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 7:31 pm

breslov wrote:

my husband on the other hand, hasn't taken a day of math in his life and figures it all out before I even have a chance to read the prices.

In this case its because of a lack of education. I say- if its 400 gram for 10 shekel and 300 gram for 9.5 shekel, I cant even begin to explain to him that no, the 300 gram is NOT cheaper, even though its half a shekel less... Because he never learned anything in math to even begin to understand...[/quote]

Breslov, I agree that this is very sad for an adult to lack such basic knowledge of daily life.

How does one cope when they are far more educated/more intellectually inclined than their spouse? Do you find yourself getting angry and frustrated? Or are there other elements to your relationship that make up for this imbalance?

gryp

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:11 pm

breslov wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.

I'll take your word for it, since you know him obviously and I don't, but that doesn't sound to me something that needs a math foundation to understand, it seems to me more of just not being good with math.

Motek

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:15 pm

Atali wrote:

do you really think an infant, toddler, preschooler, elementary school age child can comprehend the difference and say to themselves: oh that's okay, it's for the sake of Torah!

Quote:

Of course they still have to make a point of spending time with their children

make a point? like on visiting day?

Atali

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:35 pm

Quote:

do you really think an infant, toddler, preschooler, elementary school age child can comprehend the difference and say to themselves: oh that's okay, it's for the sake of Torah!

Yes, Motek, I do think that even small children can understand what their parents priorities are. My three year old understands that when my husband has a spare moment he usually uses it to learn Torah. That sends a very different message than seeing his father stay late at the office in order to earn more money.

Although of course children need lots of love and attention, I think that it is important for children to learn at a young age that they are not the center of the universe, that we were created to serve Hashem and not the other way around. Since avodas Hashem is our goal, we chose a lifestyle where my husband can focus on holy things, and my earning an income is a means to that end. I believe that this affects a child far more than having some extra time with parents and my husband not being able to learn.

BTW my DH learns part-time and works part-time in klei kodesh, so I need to work to make ends meet)

Motek

Sun, Sep 30 2007, 9:41 pm

Atali wrote:

I think he can repeat those words to you and hear how important it is to you and absorb that, but when it comes to children and their emotional needs being met, I don't think the reason makes a difference to them, when their parent is absent and someone else is caring for them.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 4:44 am

Atali wrote:

Quote:

do you really think an infant, toddler, preschooler, elementary school age child can comprehend the difference and say to themselves: oh that's okay, it's for the sake of Torah!

Children can also be taught that daddy/mommy is working to buy whatever the family needs. I don't think for a child it makes much of a difference. He can accept both situations, but if the needs are (un)met the needs are (un)met.
The kids of the charity ladies can also accept that mommy is more into helping other children (at best) or prancing around in posh clothes to kinda find money for a cause (at worst), but if the needs are unmet the resentment WILL be there. And the last thing we want is resentment for Torah c'v.

Atali

Mon, Oct 01 2007, 11:14 am

Quote:

Ruchel, I agree with you 100%. Children can, and should, have pride that their parents are working hard to support them and therefore can't stay home all of the time. They can understand that the reason why totty and mommy work is because they love them and therefore work in order to be able to pay for housing, food, and schooling for them. Children from families that really need two incomes often grow up with a strong work ethic that can benefit them throughout their life.

My step-father is an example of this. Both of his parents worked all day from when he and his sister were very young in order to support the family. When he was around seven,, he went to his parents store after school each day to help them. He grew up with a deep appreciation of his parents' hard work and still, at the age of 59, talks to them every day on the phone.

It seems like Rabbi Wein was referring to a different type of working parents, those who have enough to make ends meet but want to be able to afford more and more luxuries at the expense of their children, or as Ruchel said, to help others at the expense of their family.

The same thing can unfortunately happen in families that are dedicated to klei kodesh as well. That is why kollel families (or shluchim, etc.) have to make a point of involving their children in the Torah atmosphere of their home and showing them what it means to live a life which revolves around Avodas Hashem.

Seraph

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 12:09 pm

GR wrote:

breslov wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

it annoys me when my husband cant figure out which food is cheaper bec of his lack of a secular education.

u actually have to have learned math in order to be bad at it...

Seraph

Tue, Oct 02 2007, 12:12 pm

batya_d wrote:

Breslov, I agree that this is very sad for an adult to lack such basic knowledge of daily life.

How does one cope when they are far more educated/more intellectually inclined than their spouse? Do you find yourself getting angry and frustrated? Or are there other elements to your relationship that make up for this imbalance?

I may know more math and science, but his knowledge of torah and deeper things puts me to shame. Its an equal balance...

Rivka

Sun, Oct 07 2007, 5:57 pm

One needs to give their child the tools to get through life. Today, that means a secular and jewish education. What;s the stupid fight about?
U want to talk about kollel wives? Well I will tell you how they survive.
The husband is in kollel all day, the wife works and gets paid under the table (no taxes for them) and then they claim the dole. This means they get free milk, free housing and on the side they have another business.
So twice a year they can afford to go on holiday.
IS this what you call torah life? I call this a complete chillul Hashem and is outright stealing.
Meanwhile the Jews that got and education (secular) and are working hard to earn a living and paying their taxes and paying their way, do not get one holiday a year. So are you putting down the honest Jew who works here?
Please don't carry your kollel families on a pedestal and claim everything is legal. If they find stealing to be the way they live, they should go get a job.