Mothers and Discipline. Then and Now.

roza

Sun, Nov 26 2006, 12:07 am

Quote:

The Shelah, in Shaar HaOtiot, writes:4

Like fathers, mothers are charged with the disciplining of their children—even more so. For mothers are not as preoccupied [with matters outside the home] as fathers are, and are more often at home with their children. Fathers, in contrast, are usually preoccupied [with other concerns]: If a father is a Torah scholar, he may be engrossed in his studies [to the extent that he] cannot keep tabs on his child’s activities; and if he is engaged in business and travel, then he is usually not at home.

Further, he writes there:

Since women are soft-hearted, they are obligated, in this area, to robe themselves in a cloak of masculinity: namely, to act stout-heartedly in admonishing their children with a “rod of correction.”5 A mother must strike her child as necessary, paying no attention to his complaints, until he turns from his wicked path, to a goodly and upright one. I would suggest that the verse,6 “The hands of compassionate women have boiled their children,” alludes to this matter. Meaning: those women who show compassion by not employing corporal punishment when called for, in fact, boil their children I.e., they slay them. It is as if they themselves slaughtered and cooked them. . . .

How truthful are his holy words! Indeed, such compassion is nothing but an act of sheer cruelty. A person who rebukes his son, admonishing him for all his errant ways and meanderings, he is a truly merciful parent. For this rebuke benefits his child in This World and in the World to Come, as explained above, and will be later amplified further.

The sagacious King Solomon, of blessed memory, advises,7 “Chastise your son while there is hope, and to his death do not pay heed.” The Reishit Chochmah explains8 that even if your son is obtuse, do not presume that reproach is futile. Rather, chastise your son, for through instruction and ethical guidance, there is hope. Though he may not have understood his lessons until now, perhaps from this point onward, he will. If he can’t understand a lot, he’ll absorb at least a little.9 Do not say, “If I chastise him further, he will die under the rod,” for the verse instructs us “to his death do not pay heed.” The author of the Reishit Chochmah writes further there:

The words “to his death” refer to a child’s screaming and crying. Thus the passage is interpreted as meaning: when you employ corporal punishment, have no compassion on him. Do not be merciful on account of his cries, for it is written,10 “You shall beat him with a rod and shall deliver his soul from She’ol.”

Similarly the verse says,11 “Do not spare a child from rebuke, for when you strike him with a rod, he shall not die.” The Metzudot Dovid comments,12 “He will not die from this [strict discipline]—it is only a small hurt.”

4. [Op. cit.]
5. [A phrase coined in Prov. 22:15.]
6. [Lam. 4:10.]
7. Prov. 19 [v. 18.]
8. [At the beg. of “Perek Gidul Banim,” basing himself on Midrash Lammed Bais Middos.]
10. Ibid., 23 [v. 14.]
11. Ibid., 23 [v. 13.]

From 'The Ethical Will -Chanoch Lenaar'

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....50544

This is rather harsh method, but I wonder why it's not practiced anymore? It worked in the past, otherwise the Chazal wouldn't give mothers such recommendations on disciplining their children.

amother

Sun, Nov 26 2006, 12:34 am

For fear of being labeled abusive, many parents today do not discipline at all. They simply tell the children that they should do things differently next time , which often falls on deaf ears. I believe that part of the reason that I am a functioning adult, is that in my days of growing up, children, including myself, were disciplined with no fear of rebuke by others. There was an understanding by parents of what falls within the line of acceptable discipline and what does not. Today people are scared of what the kids might say or what the neighbors................

Might there be more children at risk, because of LACK of discipline, due to fear of discipline, rather than excessive discipline? I think yes.

TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 26 2006, 6:05 am

Quote:

dont u dare tell me that would make me have bad children. I love my children and I do this out of my love for them

Roza is quoting the Sheloh haKadosh. is your comment directed at the sheloh, or at the mothers who are discussing his comment? Either way, I consider your comment abusive. are you capable of discussing an issue without screaming?

Quote:

For fear of being labeled abusive, many parents today do not discipline at all.

This is VERY true.

As for the non-physical punishments, emotional and psychological "manipulation" can sometimes be more painful than a fleeting "potch". So you're still being "abusive", sorry.

I'm no expert, but I think the complete course and degree in child psychology that seems to be the only way nowadays for a parent to feel secure enough to discipline, won't be completed before the child reaches his teens. By that time you've got a problem.

JRKmommy

Tue, Nov 28 2006, 10:26 am

I know that Rav Kelemen and Rav Noach Orlowek both quote Rav Shlomo Wolbe as holding that corporal punishment is prohibited today.

A parent cannot place a stumbling block before a child. If a child may react to physical discipline by striking the parent, then the parent would cause the child to commit an aveira.

Today, I would be exceedingly rare to find either a parent who was capable of using physical discipline without anger, solely for the benefit of the child, and to find a child capable of receiving such discipline without lashing out at the parent.

In the past, it may have been clear to a child that the outside world posed physical dangers. Communities may have been small and cohesive, and have certain common standards. Therefore, even if physical discipline was used, the child wouldn't turn away from the parents, because there was no other place to turn.

Children face different moral threats today. As Rav Noach Orlowek makes clear in his book, "Raising Roses Among the Thorns", children face huge negative influences from society, and the most powerful tool that we have to fight those influences is our relationship with them. If we have a strong bond with our children, they will want to be with us, and be like us. If we don't have that bond, they may not only reject us, but everything that we teach them as well.

There are plenty of positive discipline techniques which are effective. No, they don't require a degree in psychology. One of the most effective methods is to be a mentsh, and a good role model to your children. Another is to consistently show that you are committed to doing what is right, and what is best for your child, even if it isn't what is most convenient or what the child happens to want at that moment. For example, a loving parent won't feed a child a diet of candy, because they know that it isn't healthy, and that the child's health is more important than temporarily avoiding some whining. When the child realizes that the parent is consistent and concerned with the child's best interests, the whining goes away.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 28 2006, 10:40 am

Quote:

corporal punishment is prohibited today.

I am tempted to say this next time I go to shul, just to see the reactions...

Quote:

A parent cannot place a stumbling block before a child. If a child may react to physical discipline by striking the parent, then the parent would cause the child to commit an aveira.

Wow, hitting the PARENT?? Unless we are talking about a teen that has absolutely no limit, I cannot see how it could happen... or are we talking of toddlers who hit?

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Today, I would be exceedingly rare to find either a parent who was capable of using physical discipline without anger

I agree. People hit out of anger most of the time. Unfortunately, so do many ravs.

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even if physical discipline was used, the child wouldn't turn away from the parents, because there was no other place to turn.

Even today, unless we are talking of a child who is legal, where can the child go? I do not notice that the children who run away are from strict families, but on the contrary they are looking for limits... or they are really "martyr children", beaten in horrible ways....

Mitzvahmom

Tue, Nov 28 2006, 10:50 am

My father used to threaten with a board that he would spank us..
My brother actually challenged him and so did I ONE TIME! Believe me a spanking with a board was enough to make me behave!

My children, unfortunately having been abused by my ex, do n ot respond to please and polite responses. Though I try them over and over again, they only respond when I raise my voice. Afterwards I remind them that I have no desire to yell and I wish they would listen to me when I speak softly to them. They say yes, and yes yes...but of course falls on deaf ears. Though I admit, my children are the better behaved kids in the shul, they donot run around wild B"H Smile

I remember when I first left my ex, my daughter challenged me. REALLY CHALLENGED and tried to take my ex's place and hurt me. I stood up to her and said u do not treat me like that I am your mother. She looked right at me and said hit me, go ahead Dad used to. YOu are not as strong has he is and you could never hurt me as much as he did! All I remember is grabbing her and hugging her, while she kicked and screamed. In the end we both cried. Yes we are all in therapy.

B"H, she still has tough roads ahead. It's hard sometimes because she is so much more mature than her age, when she talks u would think she's much older.

JRKmommy

Thu, Nov 30 2006, 6:19 pm

Ruchel: Here (Toronto, Canada), a child could complain to the school about excessive physical discipline, and a mandatory report would be made to the authorities.

Beyond that - as kids get older, the wider world becomes very appealing if they don't like things at home. Some kids "escape" through inappropriate relationships, substance abuse, running away.....

And beyond that - a child may separate emotionally, and turn away from the parents at the first opportunity. We're not in the shtetl, surrounded by people who want to kill us and unable to leave. A grown child can leave home - and Yiddishkeit - without a backward glance.

I've seen all three scenarios.

Especially today, the only way to transmit Yiddishkeit is through love.

JRKmommy

Thu, Nov 30 2006, 6:33 pm

I'll give a dramatic example:

My great-grandparents split just before my bubby was born.

Her siblings were raised by her father. He was stern to the kids, and hit his wives. Even though he was active is his Jewish community and felt strongly about being Jewish, none of his children have grandchildren who identify as Jewish. They are completely and utterly assimilated.

My grandmother was raised by a poor but loving Jewish mother, who was a very gentle lady. Even though my grandmother became a socialist and intellectually did not believe in religion - she never turned her back on her Jewishness. She also identified herself as Jewish, wanted to pass that on to her daughter and grandchildren, and always respected the religion of her mother. Today, she has a daughter, grandchildren and great-grandchildren, all of whom clearly identify as Jewish.

In a wide open world - would I go to a rav who hit me for advice? Would I respect his teachings?

Ruchel - I feel bad every time you describe things corporal punishment in France. Perhaps a child in France wouldn't expect any better from the non-Jewish world, given what you have told me. However, if the non-Jewish or non-frum world didn't use corporal punishment and seemed so much gentler, and the frum world did use corporal punishment - you can see how children could be lured away.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 01 2006, 9:05 am

Quote:

I feel bad every time you describe things corporal punishment in France.

It can be pretty bad, I was lucky to grow up in a family everyone called “laxist”, “no discipline”, “no respect”, because hitting wasn’t a educational tool commonly used by my parents. non jews said I would end up beating my parents and stealing money from them, frum yidden said I would totally go off the derech because I wasn’t taught “Jewish discipline” (a rav told my parents “why do you discuss with her? If she doesn’t obey, it is your right and duty to give her a slap to make yiddishkeit go into her head”). B’h it didn’t happen, although I was definitely a capricious kid and an annoying teen Wink

.

Anyway… you know, the worst is that the situation today is a HUGE progress compared to a few decades or even years ago… Now beating is supposed to be forbidden (not inforced imho but yeah), hitting at school is very controversial (wasn’t in my primary school days!), and so on.

Quote:

Perhaps a child in France wouldn't expect any better from the non-Jewish world, given what you have told me. However, if the non-Jewish or non-frum world didn't use corporal punishment and seemed so much gentler, and the frum world did use corporal punishment - you can see how children could be lured away.

You're right, I didn't think of that.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 2:50 am

There is another way to look at this argument. The question is not what you do but where you are coming from when you do it.

The halacha, which applies in all situations, allows a parent to use corporal punishment and even speaks negatively of those who should but don't. OTOH, there are stringent requirements. The parent may not be angry, they must have decided intellectually that this is what the child needs for his proper chinuch. Both sides of this coin has ample representation in Jewish writings. When I began to learn w/advisors who are rewriting the book based on Torah as opposed to psychology the third opinion that reconciles the two became very clear.

For someone to say point blank that corporal punishment under BM is not allowed is plain ignoring halacha. I am careful with such a person, esp if he also has psychological training and the title Rabbi. This is why I said in another thread that I don't recommend a single English book on chinuch. They are generally people using their smicha to try and assimilate nonJewish ideas and pass them off as Torah.

In Israel there are a number of rabbanim and talmidei chachamim who are recreating the entire helping field based on a thorough examination of current ideas and holding them up to a Torah light. Sometimes just getting the people to understand that there is a vast Torah literature on the soul, its illnesses and their treatment is a breakthrough. Rabbis who pass off psychology as Torah are doing a great harm to our children and our marriages, etc.

I have been zocheh to learn under some of these and one of the things said to me is that it is much worse for a child to be raised too leniently as opposed to too strictly. When a child is raised too strictly the problem is fairly visiblke and can be more easily treated. When a child is raised too leniently then the problem can be very submerged and the person can live unhappily for years w/o knowing why.

Hitting a child after BM is forbidden by halacha. I don't need a modern rabbi to tell me that. The biggest service I can do when I counsel is to teach what the Torah says. How focused I must be when choosing corporal punishment.

I got beat well (I was the black sheep of my family for years) and I knew my father had no other way to express his frustration at me. For my Mom to hit the offense had to be really serious but the source was the same. I knew this even as a young person because of the tremendous amt of love we got when not being punished. My parents were coming from a place of loving their children as opposed to a place of trying to force us to do as they please. There are parents who care that there children grow up to be aidel adults w/derech eretz and there are parents who want quiet. They may react the same but the children understand the difference.

Slapping to knock yiddishkeit in? You are teaching your child that you need them to be frum not that they are better off being frum.When we work on ourselves to want only the best for our child and not to control them to act as we prefer the msg will get through.

A rav I learned with gave a test. If you find yourself angry then you want to control and are angry that you can't. If you are coming from a place of caring for the child you will feel pity, sorrow that they are not drawing closer to HaShem or engaging in behaviour that harms them.

TzenaRena

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 4:25 am

Thank you for a profound post.

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Rabbis who pass off psychology as Torah are doing a great harm to our children and our marriages, etc.

I've been of this opinion for a while.

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In Israel there are a number of rabbanim and talmidei chachamim who are recreating the entire helping field based on a thorough examination of current ideas and holding them up to a Torah light.

Good to know.

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Sometimes just getting the people to understand that there is a vast Torah literature on the soul, its illnesses and their treatment is a breakthrough

true, and thank you roza and imaonwheels for bringing it our attention.

Motek

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 3:52 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

When I began to learn w/advisors who are rewriting the book based on Torah as opposed to psychology the third opinion that reconciles the two became very clear.

Is that an expression "rewriting the book"? or are you are referring to something in particular?

Quote:

For someone to say point blank that corporal punishment under BM is not allowed is plain ignoring halacha. I am careful with such a person, esp if he also has psychological training and the title Rabbi. This is why I said in another thread that I don't recommend a single English book on chinuch. They are generally people using their smicha to try and assimilate nonJewish ideas and pass them off as Torah.

You're wise imaonwheels Smile

Quote:

In Israel there are a number of rabbanim and talmidei chachamim who are recreating the entire helping field based on a thorough examination of current ideas and holding them up to a Torah light.

Can you tell us more about this? I'm very interested in hearing more. Who are they? Any Americans?

Open up Jewish publications these days and you see article after article presenting the latest ideas in psychology. Ditto for speakers at school events.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 5:16 pm

Not only do Jewish publications print psychology but it is low level pop psychology.

The book is an expression. Some articles and even books have come out but they are generally vague to someone not into it because the ideas are mamash at the germ stage. We are still riding with training wheels. Not things a layman in Torah or reg parenting can take home and say that they want to try it. An exception is the (Hebrew) tapes of R' Mordechai Rottenstein, who has been doing treatment w/o psychology for nearly 10 years. He recently lectured in FLA to Israelis. I learned from him for a year, spent another year speaking to him privately and digesting. He has been a major influence in my own work.

Also endeavoring in this area: R' Yitzchak Ginsburgh, R' Yitzchak Arad, Einat Maidovnik (lecturer in psychiatry, Univ Ben Gurion) and a few others that I am less familiar with. All of the above I have learned with for varying amts of time. They have all taught accredited courses to professionals. Yael Eitan combining counseling from a Torah perspective w/scientific graphology (not the pseudoscience in newspapers next to the horoscope) has also been my teacher for several years.

There is a lot of brainstorming. Daniella Golan is trying to do a tikun in the self actualization field (very difficult). I am involved with testing the Torah validity of various school curriculum and methods.

As a teacher I learned that many things are done to make parents happy.