Yated Chinuch Roundtable Homeschooling

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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Fox

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 11:52 am

I hate to sound cynical, but I've long since stopped purchasing the Yated. I find it to be a corrosive influence in many ways, and the fact that it is "kosher" makes it all the more dangerous. Like so many media outlets in the U.S., it has discovered that circulation is bolstered by polarizing sides on various issues.

Home-schooling can be done well or badly -- just like any other kind of education.

My biggest quibble is the concept that "running from a problem" is always a bad thing. It's true that if your child has the problem, then home-schooling will not make it disappear magically. However, there are some situations in which the school is the problem, and many, many situations in which the school and the child are simply "not a shidduch."

If you happen to live in an area where there are plenty of options, simply switching to another school makes sense. However, not everyone has multiple options, and sometimes schools within a community are run by people with the same background and/or outlook -- making such a switch useless.

In such cases, it's smart to "run away from the problem."

Sherri

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 11:55 am

OP, can you edit your title to include the word Homeschooling in it? I think you might get more people with relevant opinions checking out the thread.

5*Mom

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:03 pm

I continue:

farm wrote:

Rabbi Dovid Engel
Menahel, The Toronto Cheder

...

There are also compelling reasons not to home-school a child:
they miss out on all the "extra" and memories that schools provide, including outings with a teacher, extracurricular activities,

Homeschooling doesn't just mean sitting at the dining room table with textbooks. When parents make the most of the opportunities, homeschooling involves interaction with many different people in different settings and contexts, groups of homeschoolers, etc. that provide the same "extras and memories" that outings with a teacher and group extra curricular activities provide. Yes, this is an investment in time in order to arrange this and if a parent doesn't do this than, no, their children won't have these opportunities. Again, this says far more about those particular parents than about homeschooling.

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and healthy competition.

Sorry but competition is hardly healthy. Many studies back this up. But again, assuming that it were a healthy part of child development, there is no reason to assume that that this couldn't or wouldn't be incorporated into a homeschooling curriculum.

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Most aduts don't remember the actual Gemara or Chumash that they were taught, but they do remember the way it was taught or the time that a rebbi or morah went out of their way for them.

Oy. This is a sorry testament to the state of traditional schooling and a very poor argument in its favor.

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the parents may fancy themselves as great teachers, but in reality they're not. This will impede the child's progress

Correct, but again this is an individual consideration and says nothing about homeschooling. And in fact I am sure that we all know many school teachers who fancy themselves as great teachers, but in reality, they're not. Alas, still not a given that traditional schooling is necessarily better.

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the lack of socialization, learning to get along with peers, and understanding a teacher's social cues. Being in school also teaches a child how to succeed even when others are creating adversity, as well as how to interact, discuss and disagree with peers.

Homeschooling does not mean lack of socialization, learning to get along with peers, etc... Children need to learn how to read other people's social cues, which they can do by interacting with... people, not necessarily traditional classroom teachers.

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In addition, some children will exceed ecpectations that parents and teachers have of them due to healthy peer pressure

In addition, some children will exceed expectations that parents have of them and they have of themselves due to increased intrinsic motivation fostered by an individualized curriculum.

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loss of emotional support other than parents. Many adults credit a particular rebbi or morah with changing their lives. Often, a child needs to have a mentor or confidant other that their parents. Rabbeim/moros can open up topics in ruchniyus or topics within topics, that appeal to the child, wich maybe the parent hasn't even heard about

Chazal say in Pirkei Avos: "Kol sheruach chachomim nocheh heimenu ruach habriyos nocheh heimenu." Since Yehoshue ben Gamla's time, chadorim have been set up for talmidim. Adults who are most matzliach in life are the ones who are me'urov im habriyos.

This is clearly someone speaking about his impression and assumptions of homeschooling, not his knowledge of homeschooling.

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A friend related that in his elementary school years, there was an illui in his class who was two years younger than the rest of his classmates. While this boy excelled in learning, he never learned how to communicate properly and it unfortunately affected him as an adult and as a husband and father.

What on earth does this have to do with homeschooling??

When properly invested in, homeschooling can provide all of the benefits of traditional schooling mentioned and then some, with none of the same drawbacks. Are there drawbacks? Of course there are. But not the ones cited. Does every homeschooling family necessarily invest the time and resources in making the most of the opportunities available to homeschoolers? Of course not again. Those families are indeed doing their children a disservice but this says everything about those individual families and nothing at all about homeschooling.

Simple1

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:05 pm

Fox wrote:

I hear what you are saying. But changing schools is different than switching to home schooling. Home schooling is not for everyone and will only work if one is doing it for the right reasons.

5*Mom

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:05 pm

Fox wrote:

Home-schooling can be done well or badly -- just like any other kind of education.

Gosh, how do you do that so crisply? ITA with the rest of your post as well.

5*Mom

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:08 pm

sarahd wrote:

farm wrote:

I am not even discussing the silliness of trying to avoid paying tuition. This should not be a discussion or consideration.

I found this statement puzzling. How can tuition costs not be a consideration?

I don't think this is what he meant, but when done properly homeschooling aint cheap either.

yaelinIN

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:20 pm

farm wrote:

Rabbi Dovid Engel
Menahel, The Toronto Cheder

The decision to home-school your daughter is a huge, possibly life-changing decision.

True enough! I know HSing changed my life.

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Often, searching parents end up soliciting information from other home-schooling parents, but they may not receive an impartial view from the home-schooling parents, who tend to defend their choices instead of giving accurate pros and cons to home-schooling.

Well, when you have a medical issue do you go to your plumber? LOL

Of course you go the experts in the field. That would be homeschooling parents. I NEVER defend my choices and I know no HSing families who would not give over the positives and negatives of a homeschooling lifestyle. You can see this right in the homeschooling forum here at Imamother.

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If you decide to go ahead with the home-schooling and you feel that your daughter is succeeding, it is most likely that you will continue this throughout her elementary years. You shouldn't only consider her situation at this juncture of her young life. It's important to look ahead at the big picture of her life now.

There are serveral enticing reasons to home-school a child:
safety
no bullying issues
curriculum is tailor-made according to the child's strengths and challenges
anxiety and stress of homework are non-factors
child's self-esteem remains intact throughout
emotional bond between parent and child is greatly reinforced
can generate stability if a family is going through a transition or ordeal
children are generally well-rested
the obvious fact that a home-schooled child can accomplish more in one day than their peers do in a week at school

Well, those seem like good reasons to homeschool.

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There are also compelling reasons not to home-school a child:
they miss out on all the "extra" and memories that schools provide, including outings with a teacher, extracurricular activities, and healthy competition. Most aduts don't remember the actual Gemara or Chumash that they were taught, but they do remember the way it was taught or the time that a rebbi or morah went out of their way for them

Depending on the number of homeschoolers (Jewish or not), one has opportunities to have field trips (I am planning one with a non-Jewish HSing group to go the Balitmore Jewish Museum next month),athletic activities, and social/playdates (remember the HS school day is shorter). Most HSing families outsource some aspect of the education of their child, so the child will have other teachers. Some parents don't believe in competition at all (I'm not one of them), but healthy competition can be fostered through family activities or competing against oneself. I hope ALL parents go out of their way for their children at some time!

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the parents may fancy themselves as great teachers, but in reality they're not.

This one gets my goat. Did we all get our children to the age of chinuch SOMEHOW? If they are alive we must have done something. Since when did the ability of parents cease at age 2-5 (when more formal education begins for most frum children)??

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This will impede the child's progress the lack of socialization, learning to get along with peers, and understanding a teacher's social cues. Being in school also teaches a child how to succeed even when others are creating adversity, as well as how to interact, discuss and disagree with peers. In addition, some children will exceed ecpectations that parents and teachers have of them due to healthy peer pressure loss of emotional support other than parents. Many adults credit a particular rebbi or morah with changing their lives. Often, a child needs to have a mentor or confidant other that their parents. Rabbeim/moros can open up topics in ruchniyus or topics within topics, that appeal to the child, wich maybe the parent hasn't even heard about

I think I have gone over the rabbi's points above. HSed children have better chances to form relationships with others beside their parents (if that is a goal, which for some families is not the ideal) through exposure to the world which is closed off to traditionally schooled children.

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Chazal say in Pirkei Avos: "Kol sheruach chachomim nocheh heimenu ruach habriyos nocheh heimenu." Since Yehoshue ben Gamla's time, chadorim have been set up for talmidim. Adults who are most matzliach in life are the ones who are me'urov im habriyos.

Before that time, parents were expected to teach their own children. The only reason Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted the formal education system was because their was inequity between children who had parents equipped to teach them and orphans who had no one to teach them.

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Was this kid homeschooled? No, wait, he was in the schools! Hmmm - this is a reason not to homeschool?

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Home-schooling your daughter will cause her to be different and may create issues with her choice of high schools and seminaries later on.

Both the first point and last point are very true. She will be different and that difference may the reason a family homeschools. There are sems, high schools and mesiftos that will discriminate against HSed children. That says something about those institutions...

Quote:

Since you are blessed with a choice of several schools in you kehillah, choose the one that best suits your daughter's needs. Allow the capable menaheles and moros/teachers to succeed with your daughter along with your encouragement and close contact with the school.

That is one option; homeschooling is another.

yaelinIN

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 12:30 pm

All the comments that the esteemed mechanchim give boil down to, "You parents are NOT equipped to take care of and educate (the greater idea of education, not just Rashi and Tosefos, math and Spanish) your children. Give them to us 5-6 days a week for the majority of their waking hours and WE will take care of it."

Many HSing families (Jewish, not Jewish) see the underlying message and disagree. They HS to take back the reins from the "experts". There is a use for people who have taken time to learn specialized information and HSing families are the first people to utilize them in the right time and place. However, if we as parents give up all control to the "experts" we have no one to blame but ourselves when our children turn out like the "experts" want them to, not the way we as parents want them to.

AztecQueen2000

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 3:34 pm

I found out about this discussion just as I came home from my kids' homeschool Hebrew class! :D
While I don't believe everyone should homeschool (for example any parent who doesn't want to be around their kids all day--I get that answer a lot!) I do think that any family who has the drive to make it work can do so. Most parents, whether they use the school system or not, want their children to be both well-educated and well-adjusted socially.
I find it interesting that no one has questioned my ability to teach my kids, but nearly everyone brings up socialization. Now, I haven't been in school for several years, but I recall a lot of time spent sitting quietly and either listening to the teacher, or doing classwork assignments in silence. While there were allotted times for all this much-vaunted "socialization," it seemed relegated to a pretty minor part of the day. Now, I don't know about the current school system, but I doubt very much has changed.
As for creating a Jewish atmosphere, what better place than the home? Children get to help Mommy clean for Pesach, set the table for Shabbos, daven with their parents, and watch Judaism in action every moment of every day. I know of families where the children are so tired from being in school all week, they go to bed before their fathers come home to say Kiddush.
Also, ultimately, the most important bond a child has is with the parents. Teachers come and go, friends come and go, but parents and siblings are for a lifetime. Unfortunately, with children starting school younger and younger, the rebbe's/morah's influence can supplant the parent's. How much family time can there be if children only see their parents in the hectic hours before and after school? How pleasant can it be if parents only see their kids to hurry them out the door in the mornings or deal with their homework?
Again, homeschooling may not be for everyone. But it can be a very positive choice for a family.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:16 pm

yaelinIN wrote:

Could you post the rest of the answers from the roundtable please?

Okay. Working on it.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:23 pm

Rabbi Avrohom Neuberger
R"M, Yeshiva Gedola of Bridgeport

Talk about counter-intuitive! Conventional thinking is that homeschooling is academically beneficial and socially detrimental. Yet, you wish to homeschool for social considerations. This sounds like a bad idea. Your daughter will only learn to integrate with society by dealing with society, not by insulating herself in her home. Stress justifies removing a girl from school only if she is truly suffering and, chas veshalom, on the verge of a breakdown, in which case she should seek professional attention.

On the whole, homeschooling is a high stakes gamble. While one-on-one lessions are vastly more effective- and in the case of a boy a true kiyum of veshinantom levonecha- the reality is that society has not embraced this mehalech. So homeschooling creates a distinct risk of producing a very bright child who is, for lack of a better word, weird. But let me emphasize this: There is absolutely nothing wrong with being weird. Weird just mean non-conventional, and perhaps that is a good thing. Convention is nothing more than that which everyone does. But ultimately, the risk clearly exists, and not everyone feel comfortable being non-conventional, so to homeschool is a gamble.

Let me leave you, on the other hand, with a point to ponder. Three of our recent gedolim studied primarily in non-conventional settings. Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Chazon Ish, and ybl"c Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv learned mostly along and not in yeshivos. I guess the gamble sometimes payoff.

Kol tuv.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:27 pm

Rabbi Nosson Scherman
General Editor, Artscroll/Mesorah Publications

Unless there are compelling reasons, I would be opposed to homeschooling. The writer implies that there may be such "compelling reasons," but as a general rule it is a bad idea and, in most cases, a disservice to the child.

Academically, it is not likely that homeschooling will cover the normal school curriculum, simply because the drive to learn and teach will dwindle as the weeks go by, and there is little stimulus to maintain the program. Sooner or later, the child will go back to school and then she will be at a disadvantage, thus even increasing the pressures that the parent is trying to remove. Socially, the child will be without friends. Not at first, because she'll still be friendly with her old schoolmates, but that will wear off, since she will not be part of the school environment anymore.

The parents shold consult the school on how to ameliorate the "social pressure and stress," but running away from the problem will not solve it. If, indeed, the problem is as significant as the writer implies, a professional should be consulted.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:30 pm

Rabbi Mordechai Kamenetzky
Rosh Yeshiva, Yeshiva Toras Chaim at South Shore

Life will always serve stress and social pressures. Running away from those realities by sequestering your daughter is not an eitzah. It is a cop-out.

There are small schools that tailor to children with social needs. I am sure there will be one that can help your daughter. Learning in an atmosphere of friends and camaraderie is of great importance to learning to adapt socially in a world filled with interaction.

Homeschooling is not a lechatchilah, but a big bedieved. Although there could be circumstances where I would consider it, the reasons you state are not sufficient, in my opinion, to justify such a drastic move.

Hatzlachah.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:36 pm

Rabbi Yisroel Hisiger
Brooklyn, NY

The Gemara in Maseches Bava Basra relates that Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted chadorim all over Eretz Yisroel so that even those not fortunate to have a father to teach them Torah could still learn. Prior to this innovation, children learned Torah at home; this was the optimum way to transmit Torah from father to son.

The Torah frames the obligation to teach Torah as "Veshinantom levonecha- YOU should teach your son." When this was no longer feasible, the great Yehoshua ben Gamla instituted the next best method, schools. With the passage of time and the burden of parnassah, requiring more and more of the parent's time, compulsory schooling became the norm.

Having spend many years with youngsters in the current school setting, I can attest to the positive experience our children have in school. Children look forward to the socialization with friends at school. Organized play and recreation teaches mutual respect.

More importantly, not all parents are capable of teaching their children the wide variety of subjects that are required. In addition, often times, parents are advised not to even self-tutor their children, but rather to hire qualified professionals to provide the coaching. Too much stress and anxiety are common results when parents try to teach/tutor their children.

There is one more practical aspect of homeschooling to be considered. If a child who has been homeschooled has to be placed in school, it becomes very difficult to gain entrance midstream when classes are already filled to capacity.

This is a decision that requires much planning and forethought.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:41 pm

Rabbi Shmuel Yaakov Klein
Director, Publications and Communications, Torah Umesorah

This issue falls into a category in which there may be a difference between a hashkafah standpoint and a practical one. The philosophy of homeschooling is an ideal to strive for. The reason is simple. In the Torah's view, botei chinuch are nothing more than substitutes for the "real thing." The real thing is the parent. It was only when Yehoshua ben Gamla perceived weakness in the "real thing" (as suggested by the words "mi she'ein lo av") that he instituted that there be melamdim and schools in all towns. In fact, as Shlomo Hamelech teaches, there is prominence ascribed to "mussar avicha" and "Toras imecha" that surpasses all else.

The practical view, as minifest in our real world, might be different, though. ALthough a child might even achieve more academically from homeschooling than being in yeshiva, there are losses in that situation that needed to be considered. The social ramifications- friendships; development of social skills and coping strategies; development of interpersonal skills/middos tovos; the enjoyment that usually comes from recesses, lunch breaks, school events, class trips and so on- can be so impacting that the recipient of long-term homeschooling might be seen as a bit of a pariah.

Obviously, there can be extenuating circumstances that figure more prominently than all of the above. So a calculation needs to be made to reckon the sechar vis-a-vis the hefsed. In a situation of simple choice, however, I am a proponent of yeshiva schooling.

5*Mom

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:42 pm

farm wrote:

This is the funniest, if only b/c he is being presented as an education expert. The Yated: Excellence in journalism... and all other subjects LOL

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:43 pm

Rabbi Yechiel Spero
Rebbi, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Baltimore

I can't ever see a reason to homeschool a child. Aside from academics, there is so much to be gained from school. In fact, an argument can be made that the social aspects of school are even more important than the academics.

It sounds to me like your daughter needs a strong boost of self-confidence. Speak to her teachers for the upcoming year and explain her concerns. Homeschooling is not the answer.

sarahd

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:46 pm

5*Mom wrote:

farm wrote:

This is the funniest, if only b/c he is being presented as an education expert. The Yated: Excellence in journalism... and all other subjects LOL

He was principal of Yeshiva Karlin Stolin before he gave it up to spend all his time with Artscroll.

Faigy86

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:48 pm

farm wrote:

I don't have anything very intelligent to add to this discussion, but I was having a hard time listening to all of these responses, but this really bothered me. To unequivically state that there can never be a reason to homeschool and ignore the many children who are hurting so badly from being in school and thrive in a homeschooling atmosphere!! That is hard to hear.

farm

Tue, Feb 14 2012, 4:50 pm

sarahd wrote:

I understand that, but for many people it is an important consideration so I don't understand how he can say it shouldn't be one.

How many times have women here on Imamother advised those who are having trouble making ends meet to homeschool? (Granted, I have never seen anyone who actually does homeschool suggest this...)

sarahd, I am guessing that in his yeshiva, acceptance is not based on ability to pay tuition so he is saying that it is narish to add that to the cheshbon, since the (his?) yeshiva is certainly not cheshboning that.

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