Yated Chinuch Roundtable Homeschooling

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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Seraph

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 9:29 am

curlgirl wrote:

Seraph wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

So what are the negatives of homeschooling?

The biggest negative is parents have very little free time without their kids around, so if you get overwhelmed by the presence of your kids and need a regular break from them it doesnt work.
Its hard to go to ladies only get togethers because your kids are home and kids arent usually welcome at these things and its harder to find day time babysitters for older kids during the middle of the school day.
Your house gets messier because its used more.
You have to deal with people and institutions marginalizing you because they have outdated and biased ideas about homeschooling.

Those are the biggest ones I can think of at the moment.

Thanks for responding.

I am worried about the "no break" part. Even now, working full-time, I still have Friday mornings to get things done for a few hours. I can't imagine not having even that! I like being around my kids, but the idea of being everything for them all the time is very daunting!

Also, doing something that all the professionals we generally trust- meaning doctors, educators and Rabbis- would say is not best for your child? How do you gain the confidence to do that?

I am considering trying this for a year with children who will be ages 2.5 and 4. In Israel this is definitely considered "homeschooling", especially for the older one who can go to gan for free.

You can get a break at times, but it usually isnt in the morning while everyone is in school. I have my husband help with the kids and either take them out to the park when he gets home from work on some days, and some times I go out to a nshei event and he watches the kids. And a friend of mine will babysit my kids occasionally when I'm running behind on work and I need to meet a deadline by that day and can't get the work done with the kids home. But I don't get a regular 8-2 break that non homeschooling moms get.
Thats approximately the age of my kidsn ow.

farm

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 10:08 am

yaelinIN wrote:

Could you post the rest of the answers from the roundtable please?

Done. You are welcome.

farm

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 10:24 am

[quote="yaelinIN"]

farm wrote:

Rabbi Dovid Engel
Menahel, The Toronto Cheder

Quote:

This will impede the child's progress the lack of socialization, learning to get along with peers, and understanding a teacher's social cues. Being in school also teaches a child how to succeed even when others are creating adversity, as well as how to interact, discuss and disagree with peers. In addition, some children will exceed ecpectations that parents and teachers have of them due to healthy peer pressure loss of emotional support other than parents. Many adults credit a particular rebbi or morah with changing their lives. Often, a child needs to have a mentor or confidant other that their parents. Rabbeim/moros can open up topics in ruchniyus or topics within topics, that appeal to the child, wich maybe the parent hasn't even heard about

I think I have gone over the rabbi's points above. HSed children have better chances to form relationships with others beside their parents (if that is a goal, which for some families is not the ideal) through exposure to the world which is closed off to traditionally schooled children.

While I think that a lot of the statements from the mechanchim show a lack of knowledge about homeschooling, I actually think that this is a great point and I don't understand why you don't think it's a problem. He is saying that there are many, many children who can point out one or two teachers who "changed their life" and you are taking that away from your kid by essentially being their only role model or confidant. Why would HSed children have a better chance to form relationships with others? He is not talking about friendships, he is talking about deep relationships with someone older and wiser who sees your child from a different angle than you, and spends time with them in a different environment, allowing aspects of their personality to emerge that you wouldn't necessary experience. I know that I personally behaved completely different at home versus in school. It was a different environment that turned on and off different aspects of my personality. I could see how a teacher may have nutured a different side of me that my parents wouldn't have picked up on, and how that could have had a major influence in my life.

farm

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 10:31 am

little_mage wrote:

I don't remember the exact quote, and I'm too lazy to go back through all three pages of the thread to look for it, but somewhere it was mentioned that BTs and Gerim "catch up" to yeshiva educated people within two or three years. This is one of the reasons my husband is completely opposed to day school-because (he's a ger) he knows more kodesh after three years (well, it's been five or six now, but) then some of his friends who went to day school their whole life do. It seems to me, based on admittedly anecdotal evidence, that schools can be either strong in secular subjects or in kodesh subjects. I have a bit of a problem with that.

While we haven't started anything formal, since our son is less then a year old, we do plan on homeschooling, and have our philosophy all picked out.

Little mage, the mechanchim are not arguing that children learn more and learn faster when homeschooled. They are arguing that the learning is but a small part of schooling, and they are concerned that all the other factors are not addressed as well at home as they could be in school. Not that the learning at home isn't superior. It is.

AlwaysGrateful

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 11:20 am

farm wrote:

Rabbi Avrohom Neuberger
R"M, Yeshiva Gedola of Bridgeport

Talk about counter-intuitive! Conventional thinking is that homeschooling is academically beneficial and socially detrimental. Yet, you wish to homeschool for social considerations. This sounds like a bad idea. Your daughter will only learn to integrate with society by dealing with society, not by insulating herself in her home. Stress justifies removing a girl from school only if she is truly suffering and, chas veshalom, on the verge of a breakdown, in which case she should seek professional attention.

On the whole, homeschooling is a high stakes gamble. While one-on-one lessions are vastly more effective- and in the case of a boy a true kiyum of veshinantom levonecha- the reality is that society has not embraced this mehalech. So homeschooling creates a distinct risk of producing a very bright child who is, for lack of a better word, weird. But let me emphasize this: There is absolutely nothing wrong with being weird. Weird just mean non-conventional, and perhaps that is a good thing. Convention is nothing more than that which everyone does. But ultimately, the risk clearly exists, and not everyone feel comfortable being non-conventional, so to homeschool is a gamble.

Let me leave you, on the other hand, with a point to ponder. Three of our recent gedolim studied primarily in non-conventional settings. Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Chazon Ish, and ybl"c Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv learned mostly along and not in yeshivos. I guess the gamble sometimes payoff.

Kol tuv.

I have not read the last two pages of this thread.

But this sounds right to me.

Happy Mom

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 11:59 am

curlgirl wrote:

Happy Mom, thank you for responding.

So, how DID you manage when your kids were little?
I do involve them in what I'm doing as much as possible, but still...

About homeschooling in general, I feel like alot of the issues homeschooling parents deal with are issues all parents *should* be dealing with (best ways to teach, discipline, knowing your kids' needs and personalities, how to LIVe with them without getting rid of them). But when kids are in school there's less of a need to take responsibility for your kids' upbringing.

I've written a lot in detail about different aspects of homeschooling on my blog, so if this is a topic that really interests you it would be worth it to check there because I've gone into in lots more depth than I can here.

Little kids - mandatory naps and/or early bedtime - works for me! Smile

You're right that all parents have the same chinuch issues, just many parents delegate it out when their kids are in school and aren't consciously aware of it being part of their 'job'.

Happy Mom

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 12:20 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

farm wrote:

I have not read the last two pages of this thread.

But this sounds right to me.

Hmm...the geniuses of the generation had a personalized approach to education that took into account their individual needs. But maybe that formula would be damaging to most other developing children? Really? I'd say the dice will roll in your favor many more times if you invest heavily in your kids, give them what they need when they need it, and recognize that a school is an institution. One of my kids is in a great school with a particularly warm and caring staff, and it doesn't even come close to what I could offer on my most tired and neglectful day.

Socially? I totally disagree with the idea that homeschooling is damaging. Homeschooling gives your child a chance to build his abilities in a safe environment with lots of health support, building their self-image and esteem. You know where good social skills come from, at the core? FEELING GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF. If anyone thinks that schools are in the business of raising kids self-esteem, you're not living in reality. Look at the statistics on this, the high percentage of kids who go into first grade with high self-image, and the tiny percentage that come out the other end at graduation liking themselves. Frum schools aren't an exception to this.

Now that my kids are in school, I can say a lot of things that I would never have said directly before. My kids are all in good schools, so this is happening even in good schools with committed parents and teachers being in constant touch, dealing with smart and well-behaved kids. Schools teach kids to be mediocre. It's really like the Sdom beds, that cut down those who don't fit and stretch others to fit. It doesn't encourage individuality or finding your strengths. Btw, I've spoken to many educators, and had lots of in depth conversations with them, and they all agree with these basic points.

So I'd say that socially, the likelihood is that your child will be a lot healthier by homeschooling. (Edited to add: this also depends in part on the parents' social skills and how much parents actively teach healthy social skills when they see a child isn't intuitively picking it up, which many children need active help with regardless of where they are educated. We have to remember that many kids need supplemental help with social skills, just like some need tutoring with math or chumash). Do you really think people are strengthened by bullying, for example? This is the kind of thing adults say, but look at the scars that are left for years on children, throughout their lives.

Now, about having role models other than parents. First of all, is it possible that people are dismissing the importance of one's parents being role models or at the least a close and meaningful adult relationship for a maturing child? That's not a minor point and should be a big question when we look at the supposed 'generation gap' and the lack of respect that is rampant in families nowadays.

And secondly, why in the world should homeschooled students not have adult role models??? My older kids have mature relationships with other adults that are much deeper than anything they could have developed with a teacher in the up and down school model of relationships. Part of this is because they are comfortable interacting with adults in a way that is typical for homeschoolers but unusual in similarly aged school kids. I'm not saying this as a prideful mother, but saying what adults in and out of the school system have told me about my children. And this same ability makes it easier for them in schools to connect in a more meaningful way with their teachers.

I haven't met many people experiencing these special and incredibly enriching relationships from teachers at school that people so frequently mention - obviously they happen, but what percentage of your classmates would you say had this? Even one time with one teacher throughout their school years? Maybe people need to take a closer look at the reality and ask why kids in school should be deprived and have so many fewer areas for enrichment in this area than homeschoolers!

Last edited by Happy Mom on Wed, Feb 15 2012, 12:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

Fox

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 12:31 pm

farm wrote:

Don't worry Fox, I don't purchase the Yated either. It was given to me as a gift (and I am not complaining- now that I read it, there are certain features I enjoy, and the magazine usually has great short stories for children). However, I would not use this column as an example of dangerous corrosive influence that looks kosher. I think many of the mechanchim often give opinions that do not toot the party line and they often disagree with each other, proving that even among the chareidi population, there are many opinions and no one right one when it comes to chinuch.

Uh, oh! I didn't mean to come off so strong -- I guess I was thinking more about the endless arguments in the "Letters to the Editor" section.

I haven't had personal experience with any of these educators, and I certainly don't mean to impugn either their experience or judgment. However, I, too, am very uncomfortable with what amounts to an unspoken claim that every school is good for every child.

The assumption that several make that any problems related to social issues must be the fault of the child seems ridiculously naive to me.

My bottom line is this: I spent over half my career in education, and I don't trust anyone in the field who thinks in terms of "always" and "never." While some of the roundtable educators seemed appropriately respectful of the need to educate a child "al pi darko," others seemed completely clueless. Which makes me wonder, quite frankly, whether they are similarly clueless about what goes on in their schools.

I have yet to meet a parent who decided to home-school his/her child as an alternative to fabulous schools that children loved and where they were both challenged and nurtured. Most parents begin the journey to home-schooling because they realize that the available schools are not able to serve their child as effectively as they could. This is not necessarily a reflection on the school; even the best school in the world cannot be all things to all people.

I'm trying not to write such long posts, but I'm not succeeding very well! I do want to add one anecdote from my own experience:

When I was researching home- and/or online-schooling for my DD, I actually called my alma mater, a competitive-admission university in the Midwest, and spoke to an admissions officer. Even though I don't expect my DD to attend this university, I wanted to get a feel for how home-schooling is regarded "out there" in the world.

Her response really surprised me: she said,

Quote:

"We have to be very, very careful not to give home-schooled students preferential treatment in the admissions process. As people, they just tend to be so much more interesting."

I realize that our goal is not to produce "interesting people," but coming from a non-Jewish admissions officer of a university that turns down five students for every one it admits, I thought that said a lot.

yaelinIN

Wed, Feb 15 2012, 2:27 pm

[quote="farm"]

yaelinIN wrote:

farm wrote:

Rabbi Dovid Engel
Menahel, The Toronto Cheder

Quote:

Farm, thank you for posting all the viewpoints! You have sparked great discussions! I agree forming relationships with other older, wiser people can be a wonderful thing for people of all ages. However I vehemently disagree that a school has to be THE place for this to happen (and best with teachers/rebbes). My children for example have one sports lesson each , swim lessons and one music lesson for their main extracurriculars. They have the opportunity to form relationships with any of their instructors. My oldest goes to shacharis by himself (my husband is off to work but that time of the morning) and a gentleman came up to me last motzaei Shabbos and asked if GT was my son. I said hoping that he hasn't been daydreaming or worse when he goes. He told me that my son was so kind and considerate and took around the pushka for the shul (and stuffs his maaser in too), davened nicely and liked having him in the minyan.

Here's another time my children changed people's perceptions of (homeschooled) children and created a relationship with them for the good. In IN, we attended a community-based weekly science based lecture group in the early afternoons with my children. It was held in a nature center so the younger ones could explore the museum with me while the older two listened to/participated in the lectures. I hoped that since they were the only (homeschooled) children there amongst 40 senior citizens that they would behave and make a kiddush H'. The first times we went, the adults expected them to misbehave and make trouble for the group. My children took their notebooks and listened attentively and asked relevant questions of the speakers. My children were taken in by a number of the seniors and also by the organizer of the programming and were given the ability to use materials/equipment children normally don't have any access and were give responsibilities not given to other children who came during times of spring/summer break when the activities were good for a variety of ages. My kids loved the attention they got and I loved that both groups gained from our being there.

During HS swim class today, the parents looked out for others' kids and interacted with the children there as perhaps not equals but rather as interesting people in their own right, not just children. This adult behavior is typical in HS activities. Adults speak/act with true respect to the younger ones and the children do the same in kind.

It is just another stereotype about homeschoolers that is incorrect and I am glad I am able to help you see how we see the issue.

Thanks again for this thread!

alpidarkomama

Thu, Feb 16 2012, 2:23 am

Quote:

There are so many opportunities for forming bonds with other adults - tutors (my kids don't have any now, but perhaps in the future), parents of friends, other adults in the extended family, within our larger Jewish community...

When I think back to the adults that influenced my life as a child, that would include two of my (non-school) music teachers, my father's cousin (a grandparent figure), a dear aunt, my great-grandmother, my 4th grade school teacher, my Russian tutor, my high school Spanish teacher, and the woman who ran the bakery where I worked for 8 years in high school and college... It's quite a varied list! These relationships don't come from a sole source; they come from the many wonderful intricacies of the life we live.

alpidarkomama

Thu, Feb 16 2012, 2:25 am

[quote="Fox"]When I was researching home- and/or online-schooling for my DD, I actually called my alma mater, a competitive-admission university in the Midwest, and spoke to an admissions officer. Even though I don't expect my DD to attend this university, I wanted to get a feel for how home-schooling is regarded "out there" in the world.

Her response really surprised me: she said,

Quote:

"We have to be very, very careful not to give home-schooled students preferential treatment in the admissions process. As people, they just tend to be so much more interesting."

Are you sure she didn't mean "much more weird?" Wink

alpidarkomama

Thu, Feb 16 2012, 2:38 am

Re. time to yourself and homeschooling... My kids go to bed every night by 10:00. I go to bed every night at 1:00 (well, okay, so maybe it's closer to 2:00 on many nights; I'm a night owl!). That gives me 3 (4?) hours every night. I (we!) try to get all the house work done during the day, so I don't do much of that at night except for Thursday night shabbos cooking. I usually look at some part of homeschooling planning for an hour-ish each night. That leaves 2 (3?!) hours every night to do just as I please. It's plenty of time for me to do what I want to do - shiurim or other learning, read a book, drool over seed catalogs, call a friend (moved from west coast to east, so lots of late night call possibilities!), plan my garden, read imamother (and well-trained mind!)... I really look forward to those few hours each night. Also, I frequently take a 15-minute nap in my room with the door closed in the afternoon. It's quite refreshing.

We're also one of those families that homeschools because we really love to homeschool, and not because we dislike the alternatives. It's like we love chocolate ice cream because it's delicious, but that doesn't mean that we hate vanilla ice cream. I know we're not the only family for whom homeschooling is a first choice and not a fallback solution.

What cons do I see???

I'm not sure that I necessarily would call this a con, but it's a LOT OF WORK! When I'm not actively teaching my kids, I'm thinking about teaching my kids. B"H I have always loved teaching and have done it in one form or another since I was in 8th grade and started teaching music lessons.

Another con - I have to wonder what those in my (small!) community will now think of me/us knowing now that many of them have read the Yated and seen that article. Anyone whose prejudices would agree with the things that were said will now have even more ammo behind their dislike of our choice. Fortunately, I'm pretty comfortable with the life we have and why we are doing it, but you definitely need to have a strong backbone. I find I am extraordinarily grateful to the friends I have here (and elsewhere!) who just get it. Being the only homeschooling family in our community does make it a bit more challenging! B"H our families think we're doing a great job. That's nice!

So... those are just a few words. The article made me rather....... livid. But I've calmed down quite a bit since first reading it.

Fox

Thu, Feb 16 2012, 6:02 pm

alpidarkomama wrote:

Are you sure she didn't mean "much more weird?" Wink

Well, I didn't press her for a definition of "interesting"! Maybe I should have!

But she knew that I'd attended the division of the university that funnels a huge number of its grads into the entertainment industry, so her examples were mostly about people who were running theater companies at age 15 or producing sitcom pilots at age 16 or whatever.

So, come to think of it, "interesting" and "weird" probably mean pretty much the same at my alma mater!

chavamom

Fri, Feb 17 2012, 12:16 am

I only homeschooled one kid for one year and it was to get him out of a bad school situation. He did some great stuff that year that was totally non-mainstream stuff for a frum 7th grade boy (like created his own illustrated hagada for Pesach and built a model of the Globe theater while he was studying Shakespeare). I am lucky that my husband was able to learn with him every morning for a number of hours. I think it's telling that he said it was the best year he had in his entire academic career until he got to beis medrash. Perhaps b/c we really were able to educate him according to his temperament and learning style instead of trying to cram him into a box.

curlgirl

Sun, Feb 19 2012, 3:28 am

Happy Mom wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

You're right that all parents have the same chinuch issues, just many parents delegate it out when their kids are in school and aren't consciously aware of it being part of their 'job'.

I have definitely checked out your blog, I really appreciate all your in-depth fascinating posts there and here.

Thank you!

curlgirl

Sun, Feb 19 2012, 3:33 am

Seraph wrote:

Well, the moms who don't work, I guess. I'm not sure I'd not work at all if my kids were out till 2 anyway.
I'm working now, and I'm not sure I'd feel justified in quitting my job to just be home in the mornings without them.

elysheva23

Sun, Feb 19 2012, 9:01 pm

As someone who was homeschooled from 5th grade through high school, I am a very big proponent of homeschooling.

In all the years since then, when I speak about homeschooling, people seem to make the assumption that homeschoolers are "weird" and have socialization problems. Like any other issue a child can have, it is up to the parents to find a solution. A child with socialization problems needs help and more support from his/her parents, regardless of whether they are homeschooled or in a traditional school. Those problems come from other sources, not the schooling situation.

There are pros and cons to both options, but either way requires parents to take an active role in their child's life and be responsible for the outcomes of their decisions. To say that it is risky to homeschool is uneducated. Risks are involved with any choice.

When asked if I will homeschool my children, my answer is that my husband and I will evaluate our options and make the right choice for our child.

Jay3fer

Thu, Mar 15 2012, 11:37 am

Thought some here might be interested in seeing a reply I wrote to this, called Orthodox Homeschoolers Defend Their Choices (I think), for the Canadian Jewish News, where I freelance:
http://www.cjnews.com/sites/de.....2.pdf
(flip to Page B20)

(I interviewed one of the rabbonim - the Toronto one, because that's where I live. :-)))

Hope this is helpful to somebody!

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