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Do you think it is really possible for a person to change?
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carrot




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 8:02 am
Do you think it is really possible for a person to change?

For example: a person who is prone to getting "stressed out" changing to become calm and not easily worried.

A person who is insecure socially becoming confident.

A person who is easily angered becoming someone who doesn't feel anger so fast.

A person who is naturally pessimistic becoming an optimist.

I am not talking about learning to control the the outbursts of anxiety, insecurities, anger and negativity. I am talking about becoming someone who is no longer prone to those things.

Also I am talking about without using medication or other physical help - just by willpower and self-awareness or other "inner" methods. (if doing an external thing changes the inner landscape, then I guess that would count too. Like yoga to become more calm?)

What do you think?

Is it something that can happen naturally over time, or does it require conscious change?
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Younger Me




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 8:41 am
It takes constant discipline and very strong willpower for a person to change.
IMHO, it is possible for someone to change, they just have to work on themselves non stop to make that happen.
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pinktichel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 9:01 am
I always say, "Ppl don't change, they rearrange." I believe that once you have a certain trait, although you may have really worked on yourself (to the point that you thought you didn't have it in you any more), it will always be there. I believe if really pushed, it can always come out again.
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 9:34 am
It is possible to change, but it has to come from within not from the outside.

It's something you have to see as a trait that u want to correct yourself. People cannot tell u to change, u yourself have to say I do not want to be like this anymore.

That's how I got out of my abusive situation, I remembered that I could be better and did not need the abuse. Believe me it was not easy, but it was worth it. I actually had a shidduch where the guy started telling me what to do etc, and I started crying. He thought that I felt relieved to have someone telling me what to do again. Really I was angry that the shadchan would set me up with sucha man again. It was cleansing almost because I realized I have changed and I want better this time around.
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aussiegal




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 9:39 am
I just read in the mishpacha magazine about how dale carnegie's course can change ppl in just a few sessions. for example, ppl who were embarrassed to get up and talk in front of a group, were able to. People who were afraid to lain/daven out loud in shul, were able to. So I guess with guidance and group support, it also helps.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 10:54 am
Avodat HaShem is based on change. It consists of change. That is our job here. Yes people can and do change. As you get older you will know it.
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JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 11:52 am
I think that some things/events can change a person, for better or worse. For example, certain aspects of my personality and values were significantly altered by the experience of going through my miscarriages.

However, I also think that people, in general, don't alter their basic tendancies. Rather, they may deal with them in different ways.

For example, I'm an introvert. I like curling up with a good book, and I can't picture myself ever being the sort of person that loves to schmooze a crowd all day. However - with a LOT of hard work, I was able to overcome some serious social anxiety. While I tend to be quiet, I didn't enjoy total isolation, and I feel a sense of triumph when I manage to do things on the phone, have good client meetings, teach, argue in court, etc. No one has a personality that is 100% one way - even though I tend to be an introvert, I see get some pleasure from being with people, but I have to really push myself to be able to experience that. It will always be something that I have to work on.

OTOH, as someone who is naturally calm, I don't have to go through the same struggles as others to control my temper or keep calm in under stress. It's a natural reaction, not a learned response for me.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 4:30 pm
carrot wrote:
Do you think it is really possible for a person to change?


Rambam in Hilchos Dei'os explains how to go about changing.

Quote:
Is it something that can happen naturally over time, or does it require conscious change?


It can happen both ways.
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HealthCoach




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 28 2006, 9:39 pm
It's definitely possible, but it takes commitment and substantial effort. The person has to really want to. I don't think you can get someone else to change though.
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carrot




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 29 2006, 2:17 pm
pinktichel wrote:
I always say, "Ppl don't change, they rearrange." I believe that once you have a certain trait, although you may have really worked on yourself (to the point that you thought you didn't have it in you any more), it will always be there. I believe if really pushed, it can always come out again.


This is what I am wondering about. If it is possible to really change it inside.

Motek, what kind of changes is Rambam talking about there?
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Ribbie Danzinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 29 2006, 2:42 pm
I believe that a person can change.

It takes a lot of work on middot etc, but the ultimate success is only from Hashem. Which is why all self-improvement must include heartfelt prayer to Hashem.

What must never change is the desire to be a better person. If that isn't a given then no change will ever be effected.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Nov 29 2006, 2:45 pm
From shemayisroel-

In Hilchos Dei'os the Rambam discusses where middos stem from. Some are innate characteristics of a person, similar to one's innate physical features (such as hair color and facial features). But some middos are learned from others or adopted, just as a person can adopt physical features (such as hair style or weight gain).

It is much easier to rid oneself of adopted characteristics. Just as they were learned, they can be unlearned. Divesting oneself of innate middos is a much more arduous task. Each person has a unique composition of middos, so each one has his own path to self-perfection.

If and when we do stumble even after working on ourselves, we must see this as a perfect opportunity for introspection. Think. Why did I behave that way or respond like that? By honestly facing ourselves and figuring out the source and thought patterns that led to our behavior, we can get to the root of the problem. Then we can begin truly working on that midda.

With effort, good middos will become natural to us, just as they are to Hashem. And once we've pulled out all those weeds, we'll be left with a beautiful garden.

However, just as a gardener works on one patch of grass at a time, we must concentrate on one midda at a time.

We tend to want to work on everything at once. There is a big problem in this. Namely, it's overwhelming. How can I become the image I see of the perfect tzaddik or tzaddeikes, when in reality I am impatient, selfish, lazy, and pessimistic? It's impossible! So why bother?!

If we focus on one thing at a time, we'll slowly chip away at it. We'll be so in tune to that one area that we'll notice many opportunities to polish that particular midda. And it will be easier to get to the root of why we are acting that way, and thereby improve.

So to reach self-perfection, we must perfect our middos. But how do we acquire good middos? By acting with good middos, repeating our actions, analyzing our behavior, and relentlessly incorporating good middos into our lives. It does not come easy, but nothing good does!
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JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 29 2006, 2:58 pm
carrot: many of the traits you mention aren't necessarily either positive or negative - they are simply elements of a personality. What we CAN change is how we make use of the personality that we are given.

For example: As I said, I am calmer than most people, including my dh. However, that doesn't mean that he constantly has angry outbursts. His level of energy is often directed in positive directions. For example, he will pick up the phone and actively advocate for his patients in the hospital, even if it means "pushing" a little with the radiologists or nursing staff (politely, of course). He'll also fire off emails/letters at the drop of a hat on issue affecting the Jewish community, instead of sitting back passively.

Middos, to me, refer to moral qualities and choices that we make. Being quiet vs. outgoing is not a moral quality - it's a neutral trait. Working on oneself to make the effort to have guests or visit the sick even if one is quiet is a matter of middos. Similarly, using one's quiet qualities to advantage - by being able to focus on work instead of being sidetracked by socializing, or by being able to calm people who are in crisis - can also show good middos.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 9:59 am
carrot - open a Hilchos Dei'os and see for yourself Smile It's a very interesting section. Rambam enumerates various types of middos/personalities, says which are good, how to acquire good traits and get rid of bad ones.

and one of the goals of Limud Ha'Chassidus is to utterly change oneself (sources available upon request - will ask)
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 10:43 am
carrot wrote:
Do you think it is really possible for a person to change?

For example: a person who is prone to getting "stressed out" changing to become calm and not easily worried.

A person who is insecure socially becoming confident.

A person who is easily angered becoming someone who doesn't feel anger so fast.

A person who is naturally pessimistic becoming an optimist.


I had a major life change almost 10 years ago. Within 6 months I lost my best friend and my mother. I was with my friend when she passed away, felt her neshoma leave through me.

6 months later my mother was diagnosed and gone within 10 weeks.

It took all anger out of me. I used to be a very angry person. I used to yell at my kids, very frustrated, etc. I think it was a control issue.

Losing those two people so close to each other was traumatic to say the least, and it also made me realize how little control I have, and I have never been ANGRY since.

Frustrated, yes. But not that irrational anger.

I also worked on being more optimistic and that I managed to change. now I get frustrated when I see it not happening with others. It seems so obvious to me that this is the way to go.


I also watched one of my kids work on themselves and change from "social anxious" to "quite confident to be out there". It was an effort, and I admire that person very much.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 11:58 am
su7kids wrote:


I also watched one of my kids work on themselves and change from "social anxious" to "quite confident to be out there". It was an effort, and I admire that person very much.


How did your child realize that he/she needed to change? The last thing anyone , child or adult, wants to hear is that they need to change. It only makes any adult/child more resistant. Once they realized it, how did they go about accomplishing the change?
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JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 12:51 pm
Children who are socially anxious know perfectly well that this is what they are. Pointing it out just adds to the stigma.

What they don't know is how to get out of the vicious cycle. If you are anxious to begin with, it's harder to make friends and fit in, which in turn means that they are more likely to be ostracized or teased, which in turn leads to further trauma and withdrawal.

Youth groups, volunteering, a different setting, consciously working on certain social skills (I had become used to ignoring nasty kids, so I had to retrain myself to stop ignoring people altogether), and specific training in certain areas (like public speaking and teaching) helped me.
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 1:12 pm
letsbehonest wrote:
su7kids wrote:


I also watched one of my kids work on themselves and change from "social anxious" to "quite confident to be out there". It was an effort, and I admire that person very much.


How did your child realize that he/she needed to change? The last thing anyone , child or adult, wants to hear is that they need to change. It only makes any adult/child more resistant. Once they realized it, how did they go about accomplishing the change?



She was finishing high school and decided she didn't want to live her life like that anymore, and got books on social anxiety, etc, and just FORCED herself. No-one told her she had to (at least, I didn't!)
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Sparkle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 30 2006, 2:48 pm
I have been forced to change myself alot because of a very active, highstung, and needy child. Even though it is difficult, I will admit (on the good days) that I am grateful for this child since I am usually too comfortable with myself to change much - unless I am absolutely forced to.
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Lechatchila Ariber




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 09 2007, 7:59 pm
I believe its possible for a person to change, but applying moiach sholit al haleiv for long enough till it become part of you.

or another way of looking at it is hashem gives you certain nisyonois.
some nisyoinois are to do with your personality. I suppose for as long as hashem wants you to have that nisayon you have that attribute untill either you overcome it or hashem takes it from you.

correct me if I'm wrong anyone
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