What are AT-Risk Factors

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 5:33 am

No, I don't know if I've seen it mentioned specifically.

But if you teach your kids, either directly or subtly, that money/posessions are really important, then why be serious about Torah/ mitzvos? If you have another value which is more important to you than your Yiddishkeit then there are going to be conflicts at some point. (Do I go to that medical conference on Shabbos and get ahead? Do I clinch that deal even though it's not quite kosher and make some more $$? Do I take that better job even though it means moving to a non-frum area?) And more to the point, if the purpose of life is to live as comfortably as possible, then why waste time and effort on judaism? Sad

suomynona

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 5:40 am

I hear what you are saying.
I'm just pointing out that if you're not in the field, you can't just decide that this is one of the 2 main factors that cause children to drop-out, because you feel strongly about the idea.
People have done serious research on this, and this is not what they have come up with.

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 5:54 am

OK, I hear you. Smile

I can just tell you that I have seen myself children become less frum (not off the derech) because of gashmius.
For example I know a family in which it was the grandparents (remember, great learner has to marry a rich girl Confused

) who spoiled the children. The older kids there got really into materialism and are into making money rather than learning (they are still frum, but not in the way the parents are). The younger children who were brought up much less by the grandparents are much frummer.
I also know a family where as the father has climbed the career ladder and become richer and richer, the Judaism there has become poorer and poorer. (MO and falling)

suomynona

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 6:00 am

Also, I think you're making it too black and white.
Too much materialism is not a good thing but materialism doesn't equal hypocrisy.
People get caught up in it, but it's not as simple as the way you say it - "why be serious about torah and mitzvos".

And just by the way, I know people who became less frum or went of the derech because they grew up with no money.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 6:13 am

One night I was walking alone in the land of the pashkevillim wearing my mp3 and feeling that feeling you get in old Yerushalayim when its a little chilly and foggy. The piano, violin and harp just add to the effect. You pass through your great grandparents', or great-great-great grandparents' in my case, world. Chavrusas in the street, every 2nd building a shul or yeshiva. The closer I get to dd's place in Beis Yisroel the more you can feel it.

As I am walking I notice that a part of the walls are whiter. A new pashkeville has been hung to warn us of the spiritual dangers facing our community. I like to know what I am up against, having teenage boys, so I stop to read.

"The yetser hara is viligant and always looking for new ways to ensnare our young people." Did a movie theater or brothel open here c"v. "All who are chared l'd'var HaShem must be viligiant to protect his family from this new danger invented to take our children out of the halls of study and warp their minds." Can't be a theater or brothel, those methods are old. Hmm...

"This new temptation called the mp3..." Huh?! I was walking right into the holy camp with the new Satan wrapped around my neck! Its contents of nigunei Chabad was probably not going to save its reputation, it had already been found guilty.

This is one of the things that are wrong.

We own 4 computers, 2 with wi-fi cards and one running them all (and 2 outside of our home) on a reshet. 3 stereo systems and the number of mp3 = the number of residents at home at any given period. HaShem gave us the brains to create and use technology. "All things were created for His glory..." Thats what happens when you teach women Torah.

The whole thing is how you react to the things and how you yourself use them. I have to use the computer and the internet, I have no choice. I was working w/computers before there was an internet. Despite my wired household including one noisy server running programs in background 24/7 I usually recommend that a family that does not need a computer not buy one. I also advise those who don't need the internet not to hook up. I also advise people not to give their children access to a computer until 4th-6th grade. I also advise against more than one "educational video" a week if your child knows how to read and you need the computer.

Why is my house different than those who come to me for advice? Because of the relationship of the parent to the technology. We do not use computers as gaming accessories. Computers are very useful tools. First computer by me to the youngest child contains a graphics program, Office components starting w/Word, mp3 music files and NO games, or "educational programs". Each of my kids handled a mouse immediately as they saw it was a tool, similar to a spoon. They wanted to use the computer, OK, but the first time it was usually boring before 5 minutes, how exciting is it to make scribbles in the drawing section of the graphic suite?

Also, w/ a degree in computers and fluent English I understand it much better than they do. I fool them w/hidden files, not the other way around. As they learn Windows better the older ones have learned the benefit of hiding things from their younger bro, but everyone, dh incl, knows that there is nothing that can be hid from me. I delete or change their passwords at will. I know where they have been and what ads managed to pop up. Not stam are we asked to remember that an eye sees, an ear hears and all of your deeds are written. Most frum kids run rings around their parents' computer literacy. They also don't have the awe/fear of this technology. Like any better mouse trap it gets the job done.

The mp3 is no different than the transistor, walkman, etc. Its not the machine but what goes into it. Raising children who would rather hear niggunim than Pink Floyd is much more efficient than outlawing the mp3.
The other shita is just announcing to our children in the beginning that Yiddishkeit is less attractive than what is out there.

amother

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 6:31 am

chavamom wrote:

Yikes! So you hold we should just sit on our hands and do nothing while the drop-out rate increases?

No.
I overheard two women talking how each of their kids who are giving them Tzaros, has caused their lives to turn upside down, and has lead to Shalom Bayis issues between husband and wife and to both women getting high blood pressure and other maladies, R"L.
At some point , parents have to know where they can and where they can't repair the problem and where they are just making themselves sick and problem laden, with absolutely no results.

amother

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 6:47 am

shalhevet wrote:

I can just tell you that I have seen myself children become less frum (not off the derech) because of gashmius.

In cases that I'm witness to, it's Davka the opposite. The children of the wealthy Askonim types have a Simchas Hachaim. They know that they will do good Shidduchim and be taken care of. The ones from average income and below families, where parents are comfortable, but can't handle supporting married children in a major way, those kids are nervous about their futures, and look for greener pastures. I know too many real life scenarios to back up my point.

How many Askonim's kids, that you know, have gone off the Derech? Yes, there might be some, but way more of the less wealthy kids have gone off the Derech.
How many Reichman kids or Gutnick kids are running off?

Imaonwheels

Wed, Jan 03 2007, 11:43 am

They are 2 sides of the same coin, the exact same prob in 2 different flavors. Its not gashmius or lack of. It is that someone or something is causing the child to put a value on having gashmius things or causing them anxiety over not having it.

The book Ani v'hana'ar talks about this and says that if parents overly worry about finances and don't show bitachon or if the parents or surroundings put a high value on gashmius possesions then both children who have and those who don't will not have a proper outlook.

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:32 pm

Why are so many more young adults turning off the Derech nowadays?

Besides broken homes, and physical/emotional abuse, what are other reasons?

thread merged with existing thread on the topic - mod

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:35 pm

I think it's b/c of the way a torah life is presented. it should be presented as something wonderful done with ahava not something that is oppressive.

Mimisinger

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:40 pm

I have a very close friend who grew up Lubav and is now an "older single". She is, I think 31. She wants more than anything to be married and have a family and she is a WONDERFUL person. She's amazing! I don't know why she isn't married. Anyway, she told me that if she knew right now, that marriage and family just wasn't in the cards for her, she wouldn't be frum. She said that it's just too hard to be single in this world. She doesn't want to be a guest at people's homes for the rest of her life. She doesn't want to do chagim and shabbos as a guest or at her mother's home.

So, in conclusion, I think a huge part is the shidduch crisis. What I wrote above is obviously not everyone, and b"h my friend is still frum, but the older people get w/o getting married, the harder it is to stay frum. Obv. being shomer negia is difficult the older you get, and it's difficult to wait around to get married and if it's just nmot happening, you need to find life fulfillment somewhere...I see many people (friends of mine) who would be a lot frummer if they had gotten married years ago.

Mitzvahmom

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:46 pm

It's also people being pushed into marriage to early..

"for fear they will not remain frum inthe outside world if they are not married."

This is the excuse that my ex's Rabbi used as to why he pushed him to get married. He was not set inb eing frum, my ex fryed out!! It was really unfair for me..

He's completely off the derech, B"H I am not... But then goes into the shidduch crisis... men my age want women that have never been married to be "free."

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:51 pm

An *excellent* book on this subject is Faranak Mangolese's Off the Derech. I highly recommend it.

Tammy

Maya

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:52 pm

We can never judge people who go off the derech, and those people cannot justify themselves either. But, growing up in Chassidish Brooklyn, I see why young adults would want to turn away.

In the school I was "educated", everything was taught as being either assur or something that must be done.

For example, when it came to getting married, the discussions and lessons revolved around what to do to get your husband to sit in kollel all his years. It was never discussed how to live your life is your husband is not working. Or how to live your life if you don't wear a shpitzel. They taught everything to fit the 'mold' that they wanted, and the rest, go figure out your own life.

Many such young people figure out their own lives by just going off the derech.

I'm sure there are better schools out there who don't operate like that; just giving my personal experience.

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:56 pm

Another big reason why young adults go off the derech is because they were always picked on in school, and could never do the right thing, no matter how hard they tried.

I am speaking from personal experience. I was one of those that was "damned if I did, damned if I didn't."

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:00 pm

In her book, Faranak Mangolese points out that people go off the derech for all sorts of reasons. Some do it because they aren't intellectually challenged (I.e. teachers dismiss questions that they have), aren't emotionally committed to Yiddishkeit (don't see any emotional rewards for keeping the mitzvos), bad experiences, and other factors as well.

If you're interested in this subject, read the book.

Tammy

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:02 pm

mental illness

learning disabilities

amother

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:02 pm

Quote:

I feel like I wrote these words this is so true sadly Crying

Mevater

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:02 pm

Too much stress on T'nach and grades, too little stress on Midos and getting along with people from all walks of life.

Maya

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:06 pm

amother wrote:

mental illness

learning disabilities

How dare you say that these are causes for going off the derech??

Whatever the women in this forum are suggesting may or may not be a cause, but your reasons definitely ARE NOT the cause.
You words sound like they are coming from one of those radical, crazy frum minds.
Come on!!