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Forum -> Working Women
"7 Myths of Working Mothers"
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:54 pm
healthymama wrote:
I meant good enough mother, but the truth is that the person will probably be mediocre across the board. You cannot really excel at several things at a time. My point is that being an average, mediocre mom is good enough for the majority of kids. And no, I don't believe in the institution of motherhood. Kids need to be loved, to be cared for, to have their emotional and physical needs met and if that person is a father or another relative or just someone who loves kids, the child does not necessarily suffer.

I think the whole concept of the institution of motherhood is very cultural and era-based. In previous generations, wealthy children were cared for by nannies and governesses and they saw their mother at social events. Remember Gone With the Wind ? That kind of society. I can't really say that they all turned out to be messed up, can you ?


I must say your way of thinking is very shocking (and appalling) to me.

Why bother having kids then?
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HealthCoach




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 3:23 pm
I think the working mother usually is a fantastic mother, has lower performance on the job than she would have without children, and neglects herself before her children.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 3:39 pm
Crayon, we don't really get a choice in that, do we?
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 3:40 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
Crayon, we don't really get a choice in that, do we?


Of course we do.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 4:16 pm
No, we don't....unless you and I are not thinking of the same thing.......
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raizy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2006, 10:45 pm
sometimes the job that no one wants makes more money then the perstigeios job. I know for sure that I make lots more money then a high school teacher but who gets more respect. she has to leave me her baby at 6 weeks old and run to school at 8:00 am while I get to stay home and enjoy my babies no problems if my child is sick etc. and the kicker is she is makeing way less then me. (I get paid from the goverment) so why do these educated ladies do it? I dont understand them?
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healthymama




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 12:29 am
Quote:
I must say your way of thinking is very shocking (and appalling) to me.

Why bother having kids then?


Why bother having kids ? Because you love kids. Because you want to leave a legacy. Because you enjoy your family. Because you want to give life.

Do you have to be perfect to want to have children ? Or is it okay to be good enough ? What if you can't give every second of the day's undivided attention to your children or can't be emotionally calm in all circumstances or can't make gourmet meals - should you still bother being a parent ? Should you worry that you are not doing right by your kids ? No. You should do the best you can, try to make good choices for your family and understand that in all likelihood, unless your choices are really bad (drugs, crimes, cruelty, abuse etc.) your kids will be fine. End of story.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 12:38 am
Why do the best you can? You'll probably be good enough anyway.

Your attitude just seems really depressing. Why bother putting too much effort into anything? It'll probably work out even if you don't.

Huh?!
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mumoo




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:40 am
Quote:
I think the whole concept of the institution of motherhood is very cultural and era-based. In previous generations, wealthy children were cared for by nannies and governesses and they saw their mother at social events. Remember Gone With the Wind ? That kind of society. I can't really say that they all turned out to be messed up, can you ?


???????

so genuine motherhood is only for the poor?

women were Divinely given the privilege to have babies-and to nurse them (pretty much proven to be superior-although I concede, formula is not poison...). And after that who should raise the children? The Torah's two-parent family is our blueprint. Babysitters have their place but chinuch is the parents' achrayus.
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happymom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 10:49 am
chana had enough money to hire babysitters and she didnt even go to the BAIS HAMIKDOSGH because she understood it was her great job to care for her baby. she NEVER left him until age two.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 10:54 am
healthymama wrote:

I think the whole concept of the institution of motherhood is very cultural and era-based. In previous generations, wealthy children were cared for by nannies and governesses and they saw their mother at social events. Remember Gone With the Wind ? That kind of society. I can't really say that they all turned out to be messed up, can you ?




I just asked my father about it.
In his times, children were often sent to “nurses” in the countryside. These children weren’t necessarily cared for correctly, when sent as babies many of them died. Or if they were cared for nicely, they suffered a lot when they needed to go and live with their parents, as teenagers. Even if it was less public than now, it could and did lead to very hard situations in the families, sometimes to hatred that lasted years, decades, forever.
- when everyone is in the same situation, you are not jealous and not (that) angry at your parents, that you may even not know (or just by face).
- who says they weren’t messed up? How come so many members of royal families were able to have their relatives (parents, children, uncles…) killed? Because they were relatives only in name.
- in these situations, the family links are rather weak, not warm at all, because people needed to protect themselves (children died a lot, parents died younger, sometimes while the child was at the nurse, when a child got married sometimes he would never see his parents again because of distance….).

I don’t think today we would agree to have this kind of relationships with our relatives.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 11:29 am
happymom wrote:
chana had enough money to hire babysitters and she didnt even go to the BAIS HAMIKDOSH because she understood it was her great job to care for her baby. she NEVER left him until age two.

happymom Thumbs Up Salut

this argument reminds me of that ridiculous study that came out some time ago that since single mothers can raise wonderful children, fathers are completely unnecessary in children's lives.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 12:55 pm
roza wrote:
The book is nt about not having career, it's about not having it at the same time while the children are little. I totally agree. But this book will not work for frum mothers.


Re frum mothers - you're right, up to a point. Many of her points apply regardless as to whether you have one or ten children, but in other respects, her book is not speaking about those who are having children over a 25 year span. As for your other questions, I haven't finished the book yet.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 12:56 pm
from the book:

Quote:
"it is interesting that those who work solely to make ends meet have no problem admitting that having a mother at home is best, while those who work by choice do everything in their power to dispute this. Mothers who want to be home with their children but cannot be are not the women who tout the benefits of day care or suggest that their children are better off with someone else during the day. It is only the mothers who work by choice that feel the need to tell people that their children are thriving in day care or that they wish they could afford to be home with their children."


Quote:
"the assumption that it takes two incomes for most families to make ends meet suggests that having two incomes is always advantageous. In truth, however, many families have found that a second income is no advantage at all. In fact, it can actually cost money to work. The money from a second income, unless it's a six figure salary, will eaten up by commuting costs, child care, eating out, work attire, dry cleaning, convenience foods, and of course taxes. By the time you add all that up, there isn't much left.
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 6:00 pm
Motek wrote:
from the book:

Quote:
"it is interesting that those who work solely to make ends meet have no problem admitting that having a mother at home is best, while those who work by choice do everything in their power to dispute this. Mothers who want to be home with their children but cannot be are not the women who tout the benefits of day care or suggest that their children are better off with someone else during the day. It is only the mothers who work by choice that feel the need to tell people that their children are thriving in day care or that they wish they could afford to be home with their children."


Quote:
"the assumption that it takes two incomes for most families to make ends meet suggests that having two incomes is always advantageous. In truth, however, many families have found that a second income is no advantage at all. In fact, it can actually cost money to work. The money from a second income, unless it's a six figure salary, will eaten up by commuting costs, child care, eating out, work attire, dry cleaning, convenience foods, and of course taxes. By the time you add all that up, there isn't much left.


Re: first quote- again, how old are the children in child care?

Re: second quote - again, many Jewish working mothers will tell you where their second income goes...

Look, Motek, 'working mothers' is a very HOT and controversial subject in secular world, especially in USA where we don't have goverment support, where women do more and get paid less then men and so on and so on. So, to write a book on this subject with a catchy title "7 myths blah blah blah" is a good money making idea. But from your quotes, this book is not well researched. Sorry, please move this thread to controversy. This forum is a support forum for working mothers. (By what ever choice)
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 6:19 pm
roza wrote:
Re: first quote- again, how old are the children in child care?


How old are children in daycare? Daycare is before school, right? Doesn't that mean infant to 3?

Quote:
Re: second quote - again, many Jewish working mothers will tell you where their second income goes...


Yup. A close relative of mine told me that her income moved her into a higher tax bracket and her salary is not worth much, she can't get WIC anymore and that her husband does not expect her to work but she wants to. Don't see what Jewish has to do with it.

Quote:
Look, Motek, 'working mothers' is a very HOT and controversial subject in secular world, especially in USA where we don't have goverment support, where women do more and get paid less then men and so on and so on. So, to write a book on this subject with a catchy title "7 myths blah blah blah" is a good money making idea.


I disagree. I think that it's not hot and controversial in the secular world, thanks to the feminist movement and the media which pushes women to work. It's hardly a choice anymore.

Doesn't seem nice of you to ascribe negative motives to the author without reading her book. Would you want to be judged on a 166 page book with 8 pages of footnotes if you wrote one, based on a few quotes?

The author of the book supports working mothers. Did you see the earlier quote:

Quote:
... we have no term for the mother who falls somewhere in between [full-time working mother and stay-at-home mother]. Just because a mother doesn't pursue a full-fledged career - complete with time clock, commute, and nearby day care facility - doesn't mean she's out of the job market. Many mothers today work part-time or they have tremendous flexibility in their work. The common thread is that they work around their children's needs and schedules and use a minimal amount of day care, if any.


You disagree with this approach?!
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 7:21 pm
by 'hot' I mean - lots of women struggle with these issues of work/childcare, work/SAHM. Women need help with making such choices and decisions, hense those books in print. But at the end, what works for one will not work for the other.
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roza




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 07 2006, 7:40 pm
Motek wrote:

You disagree with this approach?!


agree. moms need to be with their babies most of the time.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 08 2006, 9:45 am
mumoo wrote:

so genuine motherhood is only for the poor?


This was very much the opinion 2 or 3 generations ago. It was seen as animalistic, especially taking care of babies, breastfeeding...
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 11 2006, 2:19 am
Can this thread please be locked and/or deleted? It makes me sick that those of us that work full time have to read this buls**t! No matter how many times you people will tell us that you are only talking about woman who work because they want to - it's those of us that work because we need to that get hurt from these topics. Mods, I beg of you - PLEASE LOCK, MOVE AND/OR REMOVE THIS THREAD!!!

On another note - is there any way to ensure that only working mothers have access to this forum? Please?!?!?
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