do you invite people who drive on Shabbos?

ceo

Sun, Dec 31 2006, 8:18 pm

greenfire wrote:

Why should someone be left out of a wonderful shabbos - they only have to gain - it is up to them to change themselves not you

Absolutely. It's not our job to change other people.

greenfire wrote:

however you can enhance their spirituality by inviting them despite what they do after or before.

You're right. However, there are many ramifications in halacha of inviting over a person who will drive home from your house on shabbos. It is a serious question of "Lifnei Iver Lo Titan Michshal" that needs to be discussed with a posek. Just because WE think something is the right thing to do, halacha doesn't always agree with us.

Again, I am not saying that you can't invite non-frum people over if they will drive. However, it's not so simple as "well, we have to show them the beauty of shabbos, so it's okay, then." Each person needs to speak with their posek on how to do it. My family was given VERY specific conditions and circumstances when it's allowed, other friends of mine were given broader, more "lenient" guidelines.

mumoo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 1:39 am

ceo wrote:

mumoo wrote:

my fear was not that my children would respect and accept other Jew's current levels of observance but that they would see a perfectly happy, smart, successful Jew and knowing they don't keep Shabbos consider that an option.

Right! a friend of mine told me that she had to put a stop to her parents and in-laws dropping by on long summer shabbos afternoons. She didn't want her kids getting the idea that "Grandma and granpa are great people, and they drive on shabbos!"

So my sister and nephew did come over. Late, but in time for kiddush. My sister left and returned much later.

Shabbos day was beautiful; a neighbor invited my sister over for some Torah Yoga (don't ask) which she loved.

Anyway, this week, dd said, Auntie wants to know what time yoga is. I told dd that she can't just come over in the middle of Shabbos. DD said, "Yuh huh, she drives on Shabbos."

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 8:30 am

ceo wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

yup, yup, and yup:) I would invite someone if that was the only way that they would be able to experience a shabbat meal and the feeling of shabbat.

I grew up that way. it was a biiiiig part of our home. my thought is if there is a jew out there that will be mechalel shabbat but wants to see what shabbat is all about, how do you say no to that? I have already seen (not in my home but my parent's home) that there have been ppl that have over time stopped driving and even become full fledged frum jews JUST from getting to see what a shabbat was like.

I find that to be sooooooooooo beautiful and amazing:)

Shabbat is coming, that's all nice and beautiful, BUT there are many, many, many poskim who say that you cannot invite someone over if they will drive home afterwards. There are many different ways to "get around" this, however, you can't just invite a non-frum person over based on your reasoning, without first checking with your posek, as it can be problematic.

im sorry, do you not think that my parents asked if such ppl could be invited or not? yes, they did. and so we had many ppl that came to our home that did not even know that driving on shabbat was assur and you are not supposed to tell them, that I know for a fact.

Quote:

mumoo wrote:
my fear was not that my children would respect and accept other Jew's current levels of observance but that they would see a perfectly happy, smart, successful Jew and knowing they don't keep Shabbos consider that an option.

Right! a friend of mine told me that she had to put a stop to her parents and in-laws dropping by on long summer shabbos afternoons. She didn't want her kids getting the idea that "Grandma and granpa are great people, and they drive on shabbos!"

im sorry but there is a happy medium, you dont have to tell your kids what you wrote above. you can say, we love grandma and grandpa but you should know that they do some of the jewish things differently than us. that does not make them bad ppl, they just dont know any better, but we still love them just as much as if they were completely shomer shabbat.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 8:51 am

mumoo wrote:

My husband and I have quite a number of secular friends, some who have been non-religious all their lives and a few who went off the Derech.

Because we live on a Yishuv, which has a gate that locks for the entirety of Shabbat, our friends know that a Shabbat invitation is for the whol 25 hours.

After one of our frei friends spent Shabbat with us, one of my daughters asked how he knew all the Zmirot. I explained that he grew up completely religious, but went off the Derech.

Her response? "That's a real shame. He's such a nice guy!"

An aside question... if the Halacha for this issue is 'as long as you offer and provide your guest(s) with a place to stay for Shabbat, you have fulfilled your obligation and are not responsible for them being Mechalel Shabbat' then why would you need to get a further Psak?

ceo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 11:14 am

Kmelion wrote:

An aside question... if the Halacha for this issue is 'as long as you offer and provide your guest(s) with a place to stay for Shabbat, you have fulfilled your obligation and are not responsible for them being Mechalel Shabbat' then why would you need to get a further Psak?

Sorry I didn't clarify. Some poskim say that this is satisfactory and at this point you don't have to worry about the issur of "Lifnei Iver." However, not all poskim agree with this opinion-- For instance, our posek says it's not enough to just invite them to sleep over. Friends of mine have been told that it's okay. That's what I meant by asking your posek about it.

Also, even if your posek says "you're off the hook if you invite them to sleep over," it might not be enough to say, "Oh please stay over. You can sleep on our couch. " You might have to really try to convince them to stay. That's what I mean that you have to get a further psak-- how far do you have to go to try to convince them to stay?

Last edited by ceo on Mon, Jan 01 2007, 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total

ceo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 11:21 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Great, Kol HaKavod to your parents then. From your original post you seemed to imply that it's not necessary to check with a posek on this matter. thank you for clarifying.

shabbatiscoming wrote:

many ppl that came to our home that did not even know that driving on shabbat was assur and you are not supposed to tell them, that I know for a fact.

Do you have a source for that? That's interesting, because as far as I understood, when you invite a non-frum person to your house for shabbos, the ultimate goal is to teach them about shabbos, and that probably includes some rudimentary introduction to the laws of shabbos. Now obviously, a shiur on the 39 melachos is probably not appropriate, but I would think some basic introduction to the halchos, without imposing, just teaching, would be welcome- especially if the guest is interested in learning more about judaism.

ceo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 11:45 am

amother wrote:

as long as u give them the otption to stay over in your house, there is nothing wrong with inviting ppl who drive over. its good cuz they might be more interested in shabbos! and they can light candles amke brochos, wash and do many other mitzvos too!

Dear Amother,

Who says that there is nothing wrong with it? You, or your Rav? I know that R' Elyashiv says that it's a problem.Go argue with him, not me. If your Rav poskens differently, then great- invite over anyone you want. Did you read all the responses on this thread?

Go ask your Rav. Just because you think "there is nothing wrong with it," that doesn't mean much.

Hatzlacha, and you should be zoche to show many the light of torah and mitzvos.

Love,
ceo

mumoo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 6:16 pm

Quote:

After one of our frei friends spent Shabbat with us, one of my daughters asked how he knew all the Zmirot. I explained that he grew up completely religious, but went off the Derech.

Her response? "That's a real shame. He's such a nice guy!"

She's right Smile

Quote:

where is this the halacha? according to my Rov even if we offer accomodations, if we know they will drive, we can't invite

ceo

Mon, Jan 01 2007, 7:58 pm

mumoo wrote:

where is this the halacha? according to my Rov even if we offer accomodations, if we know they will drive, we can't invite

right- where is it? people keep quoting it- including me Smile

- but I don't know a source from a gadol in contemporary responsa. it's just something that everyone "heard" somewhere.

DH once asked a well known American posek in Yerushalayim about it, he said "I never heard of such a heter"

if anyone has a source, I'd love to see it- maybe in igros moshe? I looked in R' Neuwirth and didn't see anything.

mumoo

Tue, Jan 02 2007, 1:18 am

chavamom wrote:

I quoted Rav Ya'akov Weinberg, but he said you didn't even have to offer accomidations - it is 'pikuach nefesh' and therefore mutar. I believe that Rav Dovid Cohen and Rav Furst both say you have to offer accomidations, but I'll have to ask my dh if that is the source we heard from.

Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst??? He's my poseik. He didn't posken that way for me. Maybe it truly is a shaila that is different for who ever asks

chavamom

Tue, Jan 02 2007, 1:29 am

mumoo wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst??? He's my poseik. He didn't posken that way for me. Maybe it truly is a shaila that is different for who ever asks

It's entirely possible. Or maybe it's in how the question is asked. Like I said, I would have to clarify with my (sleeping!) dh, but that is generally who he speaks to.